Your metaphor indicated that ich was like venomous snakes that a fish/person could avoid unless put into a aquarium/bathroom

Anyhooo, I have a bottle of garlic extract sitting here if you want to dose his food Marie, it worked on my powder brown with no I'll effects to the reef, did make for some funky smelling skimmate tho, welcome to it if you want.

You're losing me here. The above is correct, but not relevant to the intelligence thingy.
Ich in the wild is less likely to come into contact with a fish. When it does, the fish DOES have a protective slime coat that can "help" avoid infestation by that single ich bug, although it's not a sure fire thing. However, in a closed environment, a healthy fish is much more likely to come into contact once your bucket of ich is introduced, and while it's slime coat may assist in warding off the initial attacks, the attacks themselves may cause a cumulative build in stress that lessens the fishes chances of avoiding infestation.
Ergo, a healthy non stressed fish in an aquarium that has an over population of ich is highly at risk of contracting ich. Mostly I made this up, but it just sounds so damn good :)
However, you please believe whatever you like, and don't let me try to convince you you're wrong, just because you made stuff up. It sounds all pretty good too, you know, for made up stuff. :razz:

hint taken, I'm done. Yes, Marie, I've had good success with garlic.

I prefer to use fresh garlic, there are some helpful chemicals in garlic that degrade rapidly in fresh air so to get the most out of it I crush fresh everytime......It really does make my house smell like an Italian restaurant

This still doesn't explain why in a small confined place ich is only attacking 1 fish. And my made up theory still explains this better than yours. I'm done too, you can pm me when you come up with a better theory.

Yes, the compound is Allicin; I smash the fresh cloves right onto the sheet of nori (I've usually had to feed tangs).

That's it, I always forget how to spell it. Keep thinking there is an s in there for some reason so I find it easier to just call it a chemical :redface:

A parasite is a living organism. They need a host to feed off of in order to replicate.

A virus is not considered to be living therefore it does not need its host for "food". Rather it needs a specific host cell to replicate. It attacks the cell itself. Both Lytic and Lysogenic Viruses destroy the host cells in order to reproduce.

Parasites are more easily dealt with via medication if the parasite type is known. There are very few medications for viruses. Virus defense is generally vaccines which usually contain the dead virus' protein coat (immune system responds to this) creating antibodies to deal with that specific virus. Once your immune system creates these antibodies, it can fight off future infection before it makes you sick.

The above method of vaccination can work for parasites but it is not used much anymore. In the case of ich, there is even a theory (I stress theory) that fish can become "immune" to ich after fighting it off. I'd believe this more if we were talking a virus but to some degree it may be true. "From my experience" does not make something fact, just one observation in an uncontrolled environment.

Bottom line, of course a stressed fish is more likely to have a compromised immune system in which viruses, bacteria and parasites will be more successful in attacking and making your fish sick but saying a "healthy" non stressed fish will not get a parasite even if a lot of the parasite is introduced to a closed system is absurd. I'd like to know how the stress level of these fish is being measured anyways. I doubt many fish in our aquariums are NOT stressed to some degree, it's actually quite amazing how well they can adapt and survive considering what they went through and continue to go through in our aquariums.

Anyway, now I'm contributing to this thread getting off track.

Sorry to hear about this Marie. One of my favorite fish over the years on Canreef...

wow...can't beleive I am reading this!

In the ocean the ick kyst are getting dispersed all over the currents and rarely they will be able to remain on a fish for very long because they get wiped away as soon as they detatch from the fish so not large scale infection can take place. However in the aquarium where the fish are so confined it is very easy for the ick to find the same fish over and over again until that poor fish is covered.

So yeah...if you dumped a bucket full of ick into a tank you would infect all of the fish in there. Has nothing to do with healthy or not healthy fish...it is a parasite and it will parasite.

Also you say you saw fish survive ick without treatment...fine....except have you ever seen fish survive marine velvet without treatment? now they are both parasites and the only reason that some fish manage to fight off ick is that it is not as nasty parasites. It's not only due to the fish fighting it off, it also has to do with the fact that ick is not such a deadly parasite as some others. If your theory about healthy fish fighting off disease would be true, then quite a bit of fish would survive velvet infestation, but that's simply not true. I guess that according to your theory, it means that a lot of fish are not heatly or they would not need medication to fight off marine velvet.

So sorry to hear about Doofus!

I just had a recent battle with ich, completely my fault though. I didn't quarantine and picked up the 3 Tangs within 2 days of their arrival and then after a 4 hour drip-acclimation into my tank. They did fine for the first week or so, and then the Blue Hippo showed ich, and then the Powder Blue, and then finally the Yellow. I fed them Garlic drenched food for about 10 days, and the ich looked like it was receeding. Then I noticed my McCosker's Flasher Wrasse showed ich spots, so I kept up the Garlic drenched food for another few days. I went overnight to Seattle, only to come home to................all 3 Tangs dead, all 4 Dispar Anthias dead, Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse dead, and the McCosker's Flasher shows ich but is hanging on by a thread. Did an emergency 60% WC to clear out an Ammonia. The McCosker's is still hanging on, and the rest of the fish are no longer panting for air.

So, back to the theory of "healthy" fish not contracting ich.........all of the fish were healthy and not stressed even after the introduction of the Tangs. A parasite is a PARASITE, it's life cycle to infect and reproduce until it can no longer continue to do so.

My previous Tangs did have small outbreak of ich when I first got them about a year ago. I treated with Proto Marin, as it was the only reef-safe medication I could find. I didn't use the Proto Marin this time because I now have clams, which I didn't before and I read that clams may or may not react to it.

So now, every day I come home from work, I check to see if anything else has died. Pretty sad, yes I know..........

I'm not planning to re-stock for at least a few months, maybe even half a year to let the ich life-cycle run it's course. What I have learned is to QT anything new before adding it to the DT. So, if anyone knows where I can get a small 5 Gal all-in-one tank, it would be used to QT any new additions.

Marie, I really hope Doofus pulls through for you!!!

Can you explain why one fish will get ich. And it will get worse and worse as the parasite multiplies. But all the other fish in the tank are not effected?

Their super fast ninja like reflexes allows them to continually dodge the onslaught of the relentless evil doers called "The Ich" ... Unno just really having some fun here.... please continue.

yes maybe...are you sure it's ick? have you id it under a microscope?

Might be just some skin irritation/pimples or a skin reaction to something.

What you describe is rare though and not representative of ich infestation.

With ich, it seem that there is different level of infection and it come be quite mild at the beginning only to become plague proportion and kill every fish at some point. Sometime it's just the opposite and it start big and become less infective after a while and only a few bits of it show up here and there.

It is very hard to predict how "virulent" an infestation of ich will turn out. I guess there are a lot of influencing factors playing a role in each situation.

Not only has this thread become humorous and interesting, not one person has said ........"Wow, are you ever an idiot" :lol:

I was going to mention that, but then thought about what that would make me :)

LOL, that didn't even cross my mind as I also would have never thought about treating a coral for ick :doh: No red bugs? Into the tank you go! :razz:

and you're not willing to admit that the the scale of the infestation is determined by whether the fish are stressed or not?

I've put new fish into my tank that get covered in ich, sometimes they live, sometimes they dont. but i've never put in a new fish with ich and have it spread to the existing fish in my tank.

I have...

i have too ich is my nemesis

Looking at Marie,s reef aquarium, her experience, her success with both corals and fish, I will take her at her word.

Here hoping he makes in back to health.

+1 I've had that thought before but didn't want to get in trouble for saying it.

Most fish can fight off ich, I hope he'll pull through and be ok. Usually it's only when they're really stressed that they can't fight it off. The only thing that I can think of, that could be stressing him out, is that he's getting to a size were your tank is a bit to small for him, but he's been healthy for so long it seems likely that he'll pull through.

I find most fish will show the signs of Ich and will take about 4-8 days before they build up enough of their immune system to fight it off. So don't worry Marie....... DOOFUS CAN DO IT.

That surely can have an influence, but I also beleive that ich can have different force or strength with different strain of the parasites. It is said that after about 10 generations the ich exhaust itself and disapear unless some new strain is re-introduced. It might be that some strain of ich are more nasty than others.

It's the same with bacterial infection, some fish might fight it and some might not, but when a very virulent strain of bacteria is on the loose very little can escape because it multiply too fast and get to a plague proportion.

It hapened to me with discus and discus plague. Had to treat all my fish for many days with permaganate potassium to save them but usually fish can fight off bacterias, unless you introduce a strain that is very nasty.

I guess it can be like the flesh eating bacteria. It is a bacteria often found in the environment and usualy does not cause trouble, until a strain of it start to attack people's flesh.

Just a theory :)

Or just like some strain of flukes have now developed a resistance to prazipro and are nearly impossible to kill whereas some strain of flukes (same specie) are killed easily.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that in my readings I had found that ich is present in every tank, but a healthy fish is able to fight them off. I'm going to have to agree with Marko (except for the gallon of ich in a tank part), but unfortunately I won't be able to back it up.

Second, what about a neon goby and/or cleaner wrase (preferably the goby as the wrasses don't have great track records)? Cleaner shrimp? My regal tang ends up with ich on occassion and when he's got it, he spends a lot of time with me neon goby... and then he's fine. Just a suggestion.

Also, out of curiosity, what kind of fish is Doofus?

Doofus is an Achilles Tang

This is a Doofus, ich is very obvious on him
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...l/P4230102.jpg
Ich is present in every tank that has not practiced rigorous quarantining. Everyone is agreed that ich needs fish to survive so if a tank has been fallow (no fish, nothing new added)) for at least 8 weeks then it would stand to reason the ich would die out. Then if every fish has gone through hyposalinity or copper treatment before being added to tank......where exactly could the ich come from? it doesn't manufacture itself from thin air/water :lol:
My tank has gone through that and for 5 1/2 yrs Doofus has never had a single white spot on him

Few things I've read (don't know if they're true but hey I read them on the internet)

- Ich disappearing has nothing to do with it going away. Is no reason to really celebrate as it's just gone to a new stage in its life cycle

- cleaners and shrimp don't really do much for the ich itself (myth) besides itch the spot and pick off loose scales.

Marie,

I've admired your tank from a far, and from what I've seen you'd be far from being an "idiot." Until reading this thread, I never knew that ich or some other parasites could be transferred from corals. So this thead is not ONLY entertaining, but informative as well. Hahaha!

Sorry to hear Marie. Let me know if you need a hand with anything.
Even though Ich is the Achille's Achilles, Doofus is fit as a fiddle and I'm sure he will be just fine.
Ever since my nasty episode with Ich & MV I've kept a QT tank set up. Anything going in the tanks stays in QT until I'm satisfied it's healthy. And you taught me that so I can call you an idiot. :mrgreen:

You do this with new coral too Lance? This is honestly the first time I heard of people treating coral like fish as far as qt goes. I thought the good reefers dipped... and the bad reefers just tossed corals in.

I knew I could at least count on you Lance :lol:

Once you have gone through the hassle of quarantining your fish, it only makes sense to carry through.....Ideally one should quarantine everything wet for at least 6 weeks.
Normally I quarantine everything for at least a couple of weeks. I have a tank with live rock and sand that is just for that purpose... but 27 pieces of coral some on largish rock, kind of overwhelmed me.......

You can watch a fish for parasites though how would you ever see it on rock or coral? Or is the idea that these things could potentially be on these surfaces but cannot live 6 weeks without a fish?

^^^^^^^^^This one^^^^^^ :lol:

Also the coral can be monitored for flatworms, aiptasia, majanos and anything else one really doesn't want to have to remove from the display

Any updates on Doofus?

Hoping for some good news..........

He is now called Spot, poor guy. He's covered head to tail with spots and is scratching on everything but he's still eating and he now has a cleaner wrasse following him everywhere. The copperband is quite put out that Doofus is hogging all the cleaning services :lol:

I have a uv sterilizer sitting here doing nothing, if you want to put it on the tank to help with any waterborne cysts your welcome to borrow it, can't hurt.

Good to hear Doofus is a fighter..... Agreed that a UV sterilizer couldn't hurt.....

I'm saying some reef prayers for your boy Marie. Both my tangs have ich right now but only my Kole is flashing or showing any signs of irritation. I hate it but I'm going to hope for the best and also not add any fish for a year and let this run its course. Is Doofus still a pig? Everyone in my tank feeds like its their last meal.

Doofus is still a pig but it is sooo hard to look at him now. For 5 1/2 yrs he looked flawless, now he just looks a mess and it makes me feel guilty but I don't have the means to quarantine him for 8 weeks until my new tank gets here