To catch fish from the ocean they stun them with chemicals which often kill many corals. Did you actually think they could catch enough reef fish for retail using a net?

Do you really think they can catch enough fish to make even the slightest impact on the population?

In some places I'm sure they still do but I believe the companies are trying harder now to preserve the reefs considering without them they wouldnt make anymore money.

I believe almost all fish from Hawaii, the west atlantic, caribbean, florida, even the philippines where chemical harvesting used to be wide spread are now using nets to catch a majority of the fish. Yay :razz:

I don't follow you. First you're against wild caught fish and now you're cheering for them? You also just told Marko that people can't possibly catch enough fish with nets for retail sale but one hour later it's possible? A lot have places have abandoned cynide harvesting for netting a long time ago mainly due to the fact that 90% of fish caught in this practice die within 3 weeks and you can't make money selling dead fish. North American, Austrailian and European governments also have laws in place about importing fish caught in what is deemed to be an illegal manner. Hobbiests, LFS, Importers and governments are all doing something to improve sustainable reefs and have been for awhile now. This is not news to anybody in the hobby or trade.

I dont believe that global warming will cause the reefs to disappear.......I think that they will just migrate........ so maybe someday will will have coral reefs in Vancouver and out on the rock.....and as far as farm raised fish.....anybody read this months articles in Coral Magazine?:wink:

I wonder how these reefs that are millions of years old survived the big climate change only 10,000 years ago known as the ice age? Not having to freeze my a$$ off in the Vancouver area oceans to do some snorkelling would be awsome! I don't think I'm ever going to turn my trucks engine off again.:lol:

interesting thought doug, ive been reading more and more stories over the past while of certain fish and corals found far out of their region...i guess thats what happens when things grown and evolee...kinda like the way alot of foreign things found its way to this side of the world and thrived after it survived the breakin period:):)

i never read cm's issue this month what is the jist of it anything interesting??

ummmm ever hear of overfishing....codfish ring a bell???????

I thought that was because you guys weren't clubbing enough seals?:lol:

cmon Denny you cant really compare a diver with a small net to a commercial troller????

thats true, but none the less its foolish to believe that we cant over fish anything, if theres enough demand then there will b e more nets then that will lead to bigger nets then that leads to boats scraping the ocean for as many fish as they can fish in as big of nets as they can make.


besides isnt a trowller just a boat with a very big net catching everything in its path????

The entire purpose of this post was for me to learn what exactly is going on considering wildcaught fish, I'm not cheering it on by any means I'm simply learning more and thanks to you guys and your awesome brains are helping to change my opinions. Is that not the point of debates and sharring opinions is to learn an adapt your own?

it is indeed , i think the thing to remember here is things ae getting better and if we never had these discussions then the topics wouldnt get as much attention as they do:)

word of mouth is a powerfull tool to use:):)

(hear that gobytron lol theres what one person can do to save the reefs)

"The world's first coral reefs occurred about 500 million years ago, and the first close relatives of modern corals developed in southern Europe about 230 million years ago. By comparison, the Great Barrier Reef is relatively young at just 500,000 years old. The current reef's structure is much younger at less than around 8,000 years old." - Source Google "how old are the coral reefs"

The reefs as we know them will dissapear. Perhaps in our lifetime. Some coral species will survive scattered throughout the ocean and will eventually form new reefs. However, it might be a hundred thousand years or even a million years before we see anything like what we have today.

One perspective that really stuck with me is that we are not killing this planet. The planet will be just fine. What we are killing is our ability to live on this planet.

Evolution will find a way...

- Brad

+1 After we kill ourselves off by our own stupidity the planet will still be here and thriving. It may not be as it is today but the world is ever changing. I think technology has brought a lot of fear to people. Now everything is monitored, probed, tracked, faked and available globally immediately. The problem is that it wasn't before and we have nothing to compare any of the compiled data to. Only a century ago the world was made up of thousands of microcosims were nobody knew anybody else's business. Now we are dealing with living as one big happy family that knows everybody else's business.

In my opinion, No one should say that about our oceans. Yeah there might be alot of fish in the ocean, but what about in 5-10 years? How are all the fish supposed to repopulate fast enough to supply our fish tanks. Look at Newfoundland. They had TONS of cod at one point, but over fished it. Guess what? There is none left. There are so many fish stores around the world. Go look at the lists when a store brings in a shipment once a week. Now times that by every single store in the world that brings that many fish in. If we can even make a small impact on this by giving breeders a chance to sell their fish, Then why not? Breeders can harvest tank fulls of fish - Therefore there is that many less fish that have been taken out of the ocean. Seeing as your post gives the impression that "One person can't change the world", I find it a little ridiculous that you won't support something as small as tank raised fish. Just my opinion though.

I commend you on your desire to be a responsible aquarist, here is a list from reef central:

Clownfish

False Percula Clownfish - Amphiprion ocellaris
Clark's Clownfish - Amphiprion clarkii
Tomato Clownfish - Amphiprion frenatus
Gold-Stripe Maroon Clownfish - Premnas biaculeatus
Cinnamon Clownfish - Amphiprion melanopus
Fire Clownfish - Amphiprion ephippium
Australian Clownfish - Amphiprion rubrocinctus
Orange Skunk Clownfish - Amphiprion sandaracinos
Pink Skunk Clownfish - Amphiprion periderion
Saddleback Clownfish - Amphiprion polymnus
True Percula Clownfish- Amphiprion percula
Sebae Anemonefish- Amphiprion sebae
Twoband Anemonefish- Amphiprion bicinctus
White-tipped Anemonefish- hybrid: Amphiprion sebae x Amphiprion polymnus

Dottybacks

Orchid Dottyback - Pseudochromis fridmani
Striped Dottyback - Pseudochromis sankeyi
Sunrise Dottyback - Pseudochromis flavivertex
Splendid Dottyback - Pseudochromis splendens
Neon Dottyback - Pseudochromis aldabraensis
Diadem Dottyback- Pseudochromis diadema
Lyretail Dottyback- Pseudochromis steenei
Golden Dottyback- Pseudochromis fuscus
Blue-Striped Dottyback- Pseudochromis springeri
Redhead Dottyback- Pseudochromis dilectus

Gobies

Neon Goby - Gobiosoma oceanops
Hybrid Cleaner Goby - Gobiosoma oceanops x Gobiosoma randalli
Yellowline Goby - Gobiosoma randalli
Goldline Goby - Gobiosoma louisae
Pink-Speckled Shrimpgoby- Cryptocentrus leptocephalus
Yellow Watchman Goby- Cryptocentrus cinctus
Luther’s Watchman Goby- Cryptocentrus lutheri
Red-Headed Goby- Elacatinus puncticulatus
Sharknose Goby- Gobiosoma evelynae

Blennies

Striped Poison-Fang Blenny- Meiacanthus grammistes
Green Canary Blenny- Meiacanthus tongaensis
Disco Blenny- Meiacanthus smithi
Canary Blenny- Meiacanthus oualanensis
Mozambique Fangblenny- Meiacanthus mossambicus
Bundoon Blenny- Meiacanthus bundoon
Forktail Blenny- Meiacanthus atrodorsalis
Blackline fangblenny- Meiacanthus nigrolineatus

Grammas

Royal Gramma- Gramma loreto
Blackcap Basslet- Gramma melacara

Cardinalfish
Banggai Cardinalfish- Pterapogon kauderni
Pajama Cardinalfish- Sphaeramia nematoptera

Angelfish

Half Moon Angelfish- Pomacanthus maculosus

Comets and Assessors

Yellow Assessor- Assessor flavissimus
Blue Assessor- Assessor macnelli
Marine Betta- Calloplesiops altivelis

Seahorses

Hippocampus abdominalis
Hippocampus barbouri
Hippocampus capensis
Hippocampus erectus
Hippocampus ingens
Hippocampus kuda
Hippocampus procerus
Hippocampus reidi
Hippocampus tuberculatus
Hippocampus whitei
Hippocampus zosterae

Jacks

Pilotfish- Gnathanodon speciosus

Snappers

Emporer snapper- Lutjanus sebae

Mobile Invertebrates

Bubble-Tipped Anemone- Entacmaea quadricolor
Minature Carpet Anemone- Stichodactyla tapetum
Red Waratah Anemone- Actinia tenebrosa
Queen Conch- Strombus gigas
Fighting Conch- Strombus alatus
Peppermint shrimp- Lysmata wurdemanni (Peppermint shrimp are not yet available, but should be soon. A few months before I wrote this, a wholesaler had some captive-bred peppermint shrimp in grow-out.)
Assorted Snails
Upsidedown Jellyfish- Cassiopea frondosa (The scientific name I give here assumes that the wholesaler uses the same common names as I do. This particular species may or may not be available. If it is not, the most likely alternative would be the Mangrove Upsidedown Jellyfish (Cassiopea xamachana).)


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1138599

I am quite certain there are many more inverts that can be captive bred including clams more anemones and some urchins.

Virtually every coral can be captive bred through fragging.

Many LFS do carry captive bread stock, but ORA stuff can be pretty pricey I have heard so many LFS still stock wild caught species quite often. The best thing you can do is just ask the LFS the tell you the captive bred critters they carry. Then you can make an informed decision. Maybe you went in for a tomato clown, but it turns out it is wild caught so you opt for the percula, which is captive bred instead..I am not sure if you are this kind of consumer but it doesn't hurt to ask the salesman at the store.

Fishing for food and fishing for saltwater tanks is completely different. There are probably a million times more people that eat fish than there are with saltwater tanks. And I never said I don't support tank raised fish, I actually prefer them and buy them whenever I can(cheaper and better accustomed to tank environment).... But since that's not always an option I also buy wild caught.

What the op said is that she won't buy any fish that isn't tank raised. And yes one person can't change the world. One person not buying wild caught fish won't change anything..... No matter how many people you convince not to buy wild caught fish, it won't change anything, because ultimately those who catch the fish will always profit. What's the longest a fish has ever stayed in a display at a tank? Couple weeks to a month? Someone will always come along and buy it.

Just like those who choose not to eat meat. They haven't changed a single thing.

From a morality standpoint if it makes a person feel good then great. But they probably shouldn't hold their breath expecting someone to breed all the fish they would like to get

The idea inst really to protect individual fish, it is to protect the entire coral reef. Sure, the species in aquariums are not close to being threatened, but harvesting tactics in some countries leave huge dead spots in reefs that have taken thousands, if not million years to develop. You say "somebody will always buy it" but saltwater fish are not black market organs or machine guns. If the demand for wild caught species decreases, then harvesting from the reef will decrease, it is simple economics. America has the most saltwater tanks by far, and I mean BY FAR. If even just Americans turned to purchasing readily available captive bred species from places like ORA, they would reduce the global market for wild caught species by 60 percent. If a few more countries did it like Germany, Australia and Canada, Those numbers would be even greater.

It really isn't a pipe dream, it is very feasible. Not only are captive bred species typical hardier, they are also typically bred closer to the front end customer than where wild caught species originate thus reducing logistics costs.

+1
If any of us would really want to make a difference we would shut down our tanks. Any fish that we buy in LFS is considered dead sooner or later it will be dead anyway for whatever reason. If the fish is out of the ocean does it matter how many years it will live after that? It will not be able to be as happy in our tank as it could have been in the ocean.

Here's my philosphical rant for today. Take it as you will.

Humanity as a whole has learned to react fiercely to clear and imminent danger. We know how to fight when we can see the enemy. However, our reaction to theoretical or distant danger is entirely different. If it's not likely to affect us, we tend to do nothing at all.

There are those who choose to believe that the current trend of global warming is simply a natural cycle. I've listened to these people speak and they have very convincing arguments showing that there is no need to do anything at present. However, with a little bit of logic and critical thinking, their viewpoint quickly becomes nonsense and the real danger becomes clear. Yet we do nothing or at least very little.

I don't think that anyone would disagree that humanity is on a collision coarse with disaster. The trouble is that for the most part we are all optimists. We believe that we will change just in time to save ourselves. I believe this, or at least I want to.

In spite of the impending dangers, we haven't really figured out how to change anything that doesn't benefit us in the present. Our society is reactionary and driven by consumerism, not forward thinking and conservative planning.

It remains to be seen if humanity can really change anything of significance where sacrifice is required. We will have to sacrifice our standard of living to deal with issues around peak oil, national debt, personal debt, global warming, food shortages, and yes, perhaps even the state of our oceans and the reefs.

It doesn't matter if one person can change anything. The point is that we need to learn to enact change on a larger scale. Communities such as Canreef can influence market trends in the aquarium hobby. If we do nothing, what then?

If we cannot change things at a societal level, then we really are doomed and trying to save the reefs is nothing more than an exercise in futility.

I remain an eternal optimist, although perhaps it is only my defense mechanism and a healthy dose of pessimism would do the world some good.

In consideration of the reefs, I don't believe that the aquarium hobby is the primary threat. The problem has more to do with global warming and the chemistry of our oceans. I recently witnessed this first hand while snorkeling in the Caribbean. The reefs that I visited were almost completely dead and it had nothing to do with the aquarium industry.

For the remaining reefs, survival will depend on education and knowledge. It will depend on sustainability and economic motivators. Our hobby contributes to these things, if only on a small scale.

Unfortunately, I also believe that for our reefs, it is really too little, too late. I fear the worst and it may be that the only surviving corals will be found in captivity.

- Brad

I agree with this. My point all along is there are greater threats to the reefs than fish being caught out of them.

But I also think that just like everything in nature that the reefs will adapt to the changing conditions of the oceans. This is already being observed in the red sea where they thought the reefs were completely dead. But in fact they are thriving and adapting to the warming sea