It can do, I need to grab a body or two before they go to the next op and get them finished conventionally.

I'll send you a pm.

So how does it work then? Is it a delay or an over ride? Do you have a link to the count down timer?

Its working for me and I have not had any problems with the time/rotation getting out of sync. But hey whatever works :)

What type of flow pattern are you running with yours?
How long have you had it running?

Thanks,
Mitch

1&3/2&4
3mths

Try this one, I am golfing at the moment , will get more time later.


http://www.airotronics.com/site/cate...solidstate.php

This is what I have been trying to come up with, for my new tank. the best I could come up with was two pumps on differant close loops. My thought was its drawning for the other side of the tank would give you the best flow.

How much flow should there be from side to side 5x , 10x ,or more. you don't wont to much flow or too little. Thats where the red dragon pumps would be nice but they're pricey.

I like the idea of the OM with the timer.

It depends on what environment you are trying to recreate.

Ocean current speeds can range from 2 centimetres/second up to 2.5 meters/second, so it's totally up to you.
I want to keep SPS type corals up near the top of my aquarium, with LPS down on the bottom, so I want a much lower flow in the lower areas with minimum dead spots and much higher 'flow up top with the use of seaswirls that will accommodate the SPS' environment.

I don't know how you can avoid complications from debris and small animals if you use the same pipes for both suction and discharge, so I think I will go with a clockwise flow for 5 hours , followed by a 1 hour period of rest then 5 hours counterclockwise flow.
On the intake screens I'll have much smaller screens than on the discharge screens, unless I run the cycle through the sump return pump where there will be no intake screen.

Mitch

Yeah I'm not sure this will make a reliable system. If the drum always moves 100% freely then it'll be fine but unfortunately my experience with OMs is they can get a little sticky under pressure and with a small amount of debris. As far as I can tell this timer works by simply energizing the motor briefly to reset the switch, the idea is this brief pulse of power will move the switch and close the circuit thus resetting it, this is an open loop control system or one without feedback. If this is the case it will work fine in ideal conditions but put it in use and you'll have nothing but problems. When the drum stops it might not start moving immediately with a big pump downstream and a few grains of sand or whatever in the drum area. The drum rotates on magnetism so it's not a direct drive so sometimes it can slip a little before being able to over power the static friction. If the drum doesn't move immediately after being energized the circuit will remain open and the counter will start again even though the drum hasn't moved to the next location. This would be the case if the switch was measuring the actual drum location. If the switch is measuring the motor shaft location then the drum could slip throwing the whole thing out of whack, ie the drum will stop at a different position.

For the system to be reliable and work in real conditions you need a closed loop control system or one with feedback. A smart relay can accomplish this and they run for around $150. You should also use two separate switches that measure the actual drum locations so the relay can distinguish between the two positions which will further enhance the reliability.

I should also point out that even with a cheap DIY mod the cost of adding the OM isn't much different than adding an additional pump. In order to accomplish this specific flow pattern I fail to see the advantage of adding something that requires more maintenance, adds more flow restriction and has less reliability. The OMs work great to simply alternate flow between a few outputs but in this specific case it's far from ideal.

thee will be strainer guards on them all. and I will not be running sand in the tank so I don't have to worry about that. I am also thinking of making some DIY live rock pannels for the back and sides. the side ones will hide the intake/discharges

Steve

If you have a jammed drum, then the smart motor or extra sensors will do nothing, unless they are smart enough to phone you and or take the unit apart.

When using a 2 way version the orientation of the magnet is changed deliberately so that it isn't possible to get out of whack.

Correct if the drum is completely jammed but typically the drum will just need more than an quick pulse to overcome the static friction. The closed loop control has feedback and therefore will activate the motor until it actually moves and hits the next switch. Unlike the open loop which won't know the difference and could end up in an infinite loop. You could also program an error code with a closed loop control system so a lite or alarm is triggered if the drum doesn't move within a set time limit. All this is called error proofing which is an important part of designing a control system.

.

In my lifetime I have built thousands of machines, I am well aware of dummy proofing.

I just did a simple test for you. the result is that if the drum stalls the sensor keeps the motor running, it isn't a quick surge, it remains running till the sensor sees the decay and the the timer starts once it sees the next magnet, if the magnet doesn't move the motor stays on.

Here is a quick bad video, there are 8 holes drilled , 4 at either end of the tank for coverage, the lower holes are C/L feeds, the uppers are C/L returns, they are being switched by a common drum, when water enters top right it is being removed bottom left and vise verse, if you watch carefully you can see the pellets being drawn in from the bottom. the pellets are an injection molding pellet about the same specific gravity as water.

just one pump.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxlOvNN-OPE

all that looked like was a ocean motion device with a common inlett and two outlets.

Steve

Except is isn't, both the inlets and the outlets reverse to direct flow through the tank and also to be pulled out on the opposite end, each is aiding the other.

This is one of a pair that were installed an a good sized tank in a public aquarium, these were equipped with proximity switches and then driven by a PLC, this would alternate flow as in the video but enable to turn the tank clockwise or anticlockwise when viewed from above, ideal in a through wall viewed tank.

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...ions/dnasp.jpg

maybe not a ball valve
 

I have not checked into this but maybe there is another valve type that you could use.

I do service work on commercial dishwashing equipment. These machines sometimes use a valve that has a servo actuated diaphram to close 1 outlet (say the outlet to the wash arms) while opening the other (the drain).

They typically have cast ABS or PVC bodies but I cannot attest to the materials used inside the valve. I can however guarantee that they are under $250 and usually operate on 120V.

I'll try to get some contact info at work tomorrow and post if I find anything out.

There's small PVC valves on washing machings for the fill cycle, cheap, but only 1/2" opening.

Using a OM with a timer as suggested earlier would eventually give bad timing...BUT... you can do it without a PLC. Just get 2 adjsutable timers (like Panasonic PM4H), a relay, and a windshield wiper motor. Windshield wipers have a home sensor, or auto off switch. Most have them now unless it's off a 67 VW or something, i used a rear wiper off an aerostar for something similar, cost $10 from a wrecker. If you set timer 1 to run for 15 sec on (or whatever it takes to open). then off for timer 2 amount (your Open time). And On again to home position to reset timer 1 again.

It is likely an Asco Valve solenoid, there is metal in them, I do work for them.

Strictly on a timer yes, but eventually it would come back in sync again, I never recommended for anyone to do that, unless they wanted even more random flow:)

I stay away from unreliable sources when I buy components for any OM unit, sure I can buy from E Bay, wrecking yards,and garage sales, but it isn't going to happen, I deal direct with OEMs for motors and magnets, the balance we produce in house, in the video provided. I am using the exact $39 timer I suggested a few pages ago, same principle that according to Mr Phelps would not work, I use an $8 sensor from Digikey to sense a magnet at each of four locations (home position)to trip the timer,reducing the number of magnets to just two would do exactly what MitchM required, the timer is set for around 7 seconds, it can be expanded to 8 hours if required.

http://s1008.photobucket.com/albums/...t=DSC_0263.mp4

Paul

That is pretty darn cool. Do you have plans to develop this into a more refined product?

I might:)

Actually my comments where based more on clarification and trying to understand exactly how the system would work and to be sure it would work. I made it clear exactly what would be needed to make the system reliable and if you read the thread it was you who failed to provide the information I asked for, I actually repeated questions multiple times.
I'm also a mechanical engineer who works in automation of manufacturing equipment but I do however appreciate your efforts to drag my name through the mud. In the past I've installed half a dozen of your units on clients tanks based on my recommendations as well as recommended them to many others when the application fits. I won't be doing that anymore.

It appears you have a very short memory, on at least 5 occasions you said it wouldn't work, and if it did it would be way more than $500, I told you how it could be done and again you disagreed, as you do on many occasions when we have been in a similar discussion, I showed you the video which proves my initial statement.

When I need a load sensor or advice on load sensors I will call you , when you need advice or info on OM you call me, just because you cannot figure out how to make it work for $39 doesn't make it impossible.

Looks like you made it work. I built automation equipment for many years, Never minded puting products on that have been tested to run for millions of cycles in horrible conditions, even if they where made for something different. Why re-invent the wheel when someone has made something to work.

You have however found a way that will not have any issues with salt water buildup and should run great. Good thinking with the mag. sensors.

I've been looking at doing something similar to my return, but i have a PLC on my tank, so should be much easier.

Actually it wasn't until post 55 that you finally managed to confirm the timer waits for a decay in the signal. Every other time you simply stated it works without explanation which is why I had to repeat my questions and concerns so much. I also always said it may not work if... and had to fill in the blanks based on the best assumptions I could make with the limited information provided, never did I flat out say it wouldn't work. My intent was to help you make a reliable system by asking a few simple questions and making some simple suggestions not to prove you wrong. My memory is fine but your reading skills and attitude could use some work.

It also still makes little sense to invest in an OM for this flow setup, a second pump will cost the same and produce better results.

If you have a plc then you are correct, it is a no brainer as long as there are enough timers in the plc to give you all the random moves you require, a couple of units I have out there are programmed to change daily so that they actually match what is happening the same day in that part of the world where the corals came from, others are simply a real time repeat scenario, same thing every day with no tide influence.
If you ever have an questions feel free to email me, it is likely running somewhere, only to happy to help.

OM is a fun thing for me to do, I have many CNC's that produce product for large corporations which allows me to design build all I want, I couldn't program a plc if I tried, and at my age I have no intention in learning, I need more time on the golf course.

Paul

This does exactly what you describe with one pump and one valve,same controller as on the previous video, both suction and discharge are reversed as you wanted, I happen to be moving it quicker than advised to show just how much movement can be achieved with just one pump, please remember this video is 5 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCgLY0baPOk



Paul

Hi Kevin,

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/w...6122624492.jpg

There are 4 holes drilled in the top brace to accommodate 4 seaswirls, which were to be fed by the 4 holes drilled in the lower bottom back of the tank.
My original sump return was to be determined and because the tank is acrylic I have the ability to reasonable modify it.

What I would like to do is use only the front two top holes for the seaswirls and drop a couple supply pipes originating from the sump down the back two top holes.
The two supply pipes would alternate the flow, clockwise or counter clockwise in 5 hours one direction with a 1 hour rest followed by 5 hours in the opposite direction, 1 hour rest. Repeat.
The top zone would be kept moving through the closed loop full time.
I have 1 reeflo dart supergold for the closed loop and 1 reeflo dart supergold for the sump return.

Depending on the results of the final setup, I was leaving open the option of adding the MP60's. The price of them is giving me a lot of incentive to minimize how many (if any) I put in there.

Mitch

It sounds like there is a design that would work from Oceans Motions, but since there are other suggestions coming up in this vendor forum I should probably continue this on my build thread.
I really appreciate everybody's suggestions so far!

Another issue I thought of is that as well as having the OM unit work, the pump supplying the OM unit would need to be synced to turn off and on at the correct time.

If you simply want the water to flow from left to right every 5 hours,then I can show you how to do this without an OM unit, do you plan on leaving the pump off for a one hour period or do you want the water to go elsewhere during that period?

Hi Paul,
I was originally looking to incorporate the switching and rest setup with a single sump return. The pump would be off during that rest period.
The 5/1/5 setup was to replicate natural ocean currents in the main tank.
I don't have anywhere else for the water to go....yet ..:twised::lol:

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/.../rev360-sm.gif



http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...01231-1133.jpg

This is a standard revolution (albeit upside down)I dreamed this up to get more random flow with a 4 or 8 way, it indexes 8 times to 45 degree firings, each time the flow goes off it rises, or in your case would fall (by gravity) and part index, when pressure resumes it would be forced up and rotate again, you can see the 8 position cam in the pic below, you need a similar version to this that you might be able to build yourself.

You only need 4 position index, pump runs and water is sent to the right, pump turns off shuttle falls and partly indexes, 1 hour later pump turns on forcing spool up to the left output location and stays there till the pump turns off again.

If I get a moment I will sketch up a quick paint picture to make it clearer.

Paul

and a quick sketch to show how it would work...

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/...ttleswitch.jpg

thats not going to give you a left/right flow though.. to get that you would need a 2 position index and the angle would be to shallow requiring a huge force to switch it. with 4 positions it will rotate 90 degrees each time the pump starts.

Steve

You are looking at a cross section, there are four ports, 2 are not used and the drum has a port all the way through, it all works fine.

I could do it with just a 2 port switch you just change the approach angle and make the shuttle longer.

Paul