You say that although the collective "we" may not need advise but the majority out there do... I agree... is there an LFS with employees who sit down (or stand up) with a new customer and give them a rundown on the work, costs and requirements involved in this hobby? Also, there is no inquisition when a customer buys livestock. I would love it if there was.

ME again
 

Hey guys,

Canadian Man, thanks for getting in on the conversation.

I can appreciate that you have not had the best experiences with the fishroom staff of some stores. I myslef have been treatedwithout great consideration while purchasing fish almost everywhere at one time or another. But you have to consider that many of these people have an ample amount of jobs to do. I know that is not an excuse for unkindness, or a lack of politeness, however, think of it this way. How much time do you spend on your tank at home? Think if you had 7 or 8 sytems that are 15 times as big, loaded with fish, and you had to feed, clean, and waterchange all these tanks. AGAIN, this is not an excuse.

However, what time might this have happened? On what day?

I can sorta guess the store, but how busy is it at this time?

Do you think you would have had conversed the same had you gotten to know the LFS employee? Perhaps made an attempt at developing a personal relationship with them? Or if you had developed a personal relationship with them prior to this event?

Could it have gone...

"How about fishing me out a Naso?"

"Sure, nice order eh?"

"Yes, (and or No)"
(Comeon you wouldnt say no...no matter how much you knew them)

"Hows that coral (Goniopora, LOL <<<<----This is a JOKE) doing?"

"Good actually, do you think the Naso will get along with my hippo tang?"

"Ya, shouldn't be a problem, you know, drop by this weekend, cause I am getting a small coral order in and those Blastomussa wellsi are coming in that you wanted"

" Ok, see you on the weekend, < insert name>"

"Take it easy, <Insert name>"

remember this is hypothetical...noit to poke fun CM if I can call you CM. Just a thought.


And ask yourself this...where do you prefer purchasing, Golds or Wais? They have completely opposite sales strategies! All the rest of em just fall somewhere in between.

I have been scrapping through the old threads and have found one thing in common with some of the board members. Saltcreep put it nicely that the most important thing to the cusomer seems to be price. You have this board and the internet, and books, and there are a million channels of information now-a-days. Everything that you want out of a store costs money, and the customer doesnt want to pay for it. I have seen many, many customers walk into a store, and use their so-called "experts" for the info, and then order the product on line b/c it is nice to have the personal selling, but also have the lower price. This is annoying, and would be annoying to anyone in any industry.

I dont know what else to say, my main point in this thread was to say something about developing a personal relationship with your LFS employee...share with each other who you enjoy talking to. People...just go out there and make a friend...make them feel appreciated, and helpful...(provided they have been) and they might be willing to do their damdest to get you what you want for the price you want. One other note is that I am not sure what you guys think of rating these stores on your site, but for people just entering the hobby, it can be both helpful and discouraging. I think that saying such bad things about ALL the stores in a certain area could keep people out of the hobby, and that is not a good thing (less friends to be made, lol)


BTW saltcreep, nice to meet you, what is your background in the industry, what kinda tank you got etc...

I will leave with a quote...."I just wanted to be your friend....(I just screwed it up)" From the Cable Guy (on TV while I am typing thought it was humorous)

:rolleyes: first of all, thankyou for the intense discussion, hence a very warm welcome to me. haha

i am currently wrking in one of the LFS, and in my eyes though the years, i have seen some things. let's summarize them:

1. price is the most important aspect for customers, not quality... although it is sad, it is so in the market, for the few reefers who have their eyes on quality, it is not enough to support a LFS... businesswise, the decrease profit margin=less care for livestock=more crappy product on shelf for dummy shoppers... it is a vicious circle.

2. to tell you the truth, in the north american market, economy of scale is very important, big stores like JL and big al's get dry good/equipment for alot cheaper. a small LFS are very hard to compete. it is not profitable.

3. usually what you see is this, a start out LFS would sell livestock to build up capital, and load up dry goods. the thing is, when price is low, profit shrinks yet sales figure not drop... why? because there are alot of people out there willing to take chances on un-quarantine, sick fishes and inverts... in a business POV, the livestock grade is indifferent for them because shipping charge is constant, i mean, a sick fish shipping is the same as the good fish, so owner will try their best to sell every daXn thing in order to at least break even.

4. as all of you guys know, if you guys can mail order/group order stuff through the internet from big companies, there remain no markets/demand for LFS to order in stuff, and when they do, the cash are sunk. the interest can be otherwise earned (oppotunity cost of stocking)are charged in the price tag, therefore you see a rise in price of dry goods in LFS.

what i wanna say is, by mail order stuff, you destroy demand, and supply WILL shrink. this is a lost to reefers because there will be no bulbs at your tank tonight if yours in burnt in the morning. because LFS see no need for them to stock... one might say, i can buy 2... but is that the right way to go?? can't your money be better well spent?? becasue there are no demand for stocking, now all reefer has to incur oppotunity cost of stocking stuff themselves.

this is the story of dry goods. how about livestock?? do you stock "spare" livestock? think about it guys! the LFS is important, they are the ones to take the risk to order the animals, and sustain any lost it might occur.... i surely will not put whatever stuffs in the mail order into my tank, why keeping stuff you don't like??

and to all of reefers out there, i feel no remorse to name LFS for their bad practice, they should be responsible for their own action. this is why this forum is here.

as you can see, i am a economics junky., it is what i do.

i open this topic to say, sometimes employees have different intentions to storeowner, i think my head is very clear. and i am rewarded with loyal customers who only come to the store when it is my shift.

and lastly, by no means i am targeting anyone. i am just giving my thoughts.

Cheers

Nice to see you here. Welcome. :cool:

I agree. MO kills the LFS, and it's an unfair comparison.

Good, clean discussion. I hope it keeps up!

What do you guys think the future is, then, for the LFS? Is the industry going to be reduced to a few large stores in major centers that supplement their walk-in business with mail orders? Where will that leave current LFS's in medium sized cities? What kind of service are we here in Calgary going to be left with, for example.
Mail order only? :confused: I hope not. It's up to the individual reefer to educate themselves and work with the LFS to keep a happy medium, I think.

Mitch :biggrin:

Yup.

I think it is absurd to say that LFS' will eventually dissapear. Chapters/Indigo Online and Amazon are huge, but yet Coles (yes, I know, part of Chapters) and other independent booksellers continue to thrive. Aquarium Illusions in Edmonton is hands down the best LFS in this province (a few small issues aside), and you can't tell me they don't make money, considering that they are continually expanding, adding, modifying, renovating.

The point is, the "bad" LFS' can defend themselves all they want, but in the long run they are hurting themselves, and more importantly, the hobby. Yesterday's National Post had a small column on Finding Nemo and its effect on the global fish trade - obviously, the theme of the movie is "aquariums baaaad" (a la Napster), yet thanks to its success, the popularity of saltwater aquaria is skyrocketing. PETA and other environmentalist groups are already on our case. The LFS' with dead or starving fish and uneducated teenagers working there are not helping anything. Retailers are on the front lines and have the power to dissuade the unprepared customer from jumping into the hobby. I think us hobbyists on Canreef do our part, in a fairly objective fashion. When will the LFS' start doing theirs?

I have a feeling someone is going to break out the whole "LFS' are in business to make money, it's hard to make it as a small businessperson". If LFS' want to take that stance, then they will never escape the stereotypical view of LFS' that seems so prominent in Calgary.

If you would check the previous posts, you will see that is exactly the point I made. In addition I said that we Canreef members are a very small part of our local LFS's business, and are unlikely to make a very large impact on their sales practices. :cry:

If it's price and only price we are talking about then even the " big " stores here in Calgary refuse to compete ... the VHO bulb example was a large store ... I gave them every opportunity to earn the biz and they turned me down flat ( did not try to meet halfway ... and box of the bulb was really ratty looking which tells me that NOBODY wants to pay those prices either so I told the guy helping me to put the dusty bulb back with the other dusty bulbs )

As far as corals ... we just dont see really nice acros very often and most stores either wont carry them or dont offer frags or charge absolutely outrageous prices for average pieces.

I am sure that everyone on this board would pay more to have quarantined fish locally.

As to bulbs ... are you suggesting that getting MH bulbs from Venki at less than 50 buck per bulb is harming the pet stores who want close to 200 per bulb and online around 125 ? ... I would guess that if they wanted to be compettitive they could have sourced out the bulbs from China just as Venki did and had people from all over MO from them too.

This is all a catch 22 in that if a LFS was to get compettitive then they would get all the biz going to MO and with increased volume be able to offer more selection.

Food for thought

Cheers

[quote="Carpentersreef"]
I think Mitch is correct here. All we( who are only a small part of the Calgary LFS trade( (especially the combination stores)), can do is tell the retailers that there is competition for them by way of the mail order retailers. If they value our business they will make changes. If they don't care, they will go their merry way doing business the way they have always done. :eek:

[quote="Rasta"][quote="reefman90"]



Actually it is not fixed, Fixing it would correct the spelling to definite :razz: :razz: :mrgreen:

I like What Steve is saying about the LFS choosing to be competitive or not. I Couldn't imagine paying $200 for a halide bulb!

I also agree with the continual comment about " Consumers having to educate themselves"

In my shop I work at (once again Not a LFS) We always check into what everyone else is charging for a product. Why? Well because it prevents up from looking stupid when some one buys it from us and then finds it elsewhere for cheeper. In my shop we CHOOSE to be competitive as well as provinding and offering advice the the customer MAY not allready know.

Reefman90. I can understand that people are busy doing things throughout their work day. BUT, The customer must always come first as thats who fortunatley pays the bills. It doesnt' matter weather your setting up a display or cleaning a tank. JUMP when the customer needs help and be aware when they do.

My tank takes a few minutes a day. I can understand that in a retail environment there needs to be someone to take care of the tanks. Well someone should have that job and be on call if their needed and someone should be there to help the customers. I feel it's redundent talking about this because it should be common sense for most people but I realize it's not.

My experience happened on a Friday I believe. It was not very busy when I was in this store. Ample staff. I got service no problem but, the conversation has never gone this way you say it could have gone. The one time I kinda got to know some of the staff was when I was planning out a large system a few years ago...

Me again
 

Hey guys...

I agree MH bulbs are pricey...not touching that one further.
What MO are you getting them from outa curiosity?

No, One thing I can see all the time is customers wanting something and NOT saying anything about it.

You want nice acros Rasta...have you ever said to you LFS employee/orderer..."can you get any nice acros"/

Acros do not sell well...some stores dont have the clientelle to bring them in all the time...and might bring in a few moderate priced ones.

Go in and ask them.

I am sure if you are wnating them, your name and number will be taken and then we can give you a call when we are doing an order..and perhaps work something out with you. Your not going to get them for free, but if you preorder MANY MANY stores are willing to give discounts!

This seems to go hand-in-hand with developing a personal relationship with a LFS employee...


And Rcipma...

Just so you know....MO and LFS have a lot different types and levels of overhead... these should be taken into account when you are comparing these two fruits (get it apples and oranges)


ALso, I agree that it is mostly the consumer/hobbiest to educate themselves...and at the same time it is the LFS employees duty to not miseducate....or try to educate beyondd their abilities...just to look at the other side of the coin as well...(carpentersreef, tony)


reefman

PS great thread.

Here's a suggestion. Next time we have a frag meet, how about some of the LFS employees come out...

Me yet again...post # 7 woohoo
 

Ya....

Got any LFS employee friends?????....(sorry just to reiterate the point I have been trying to make...)

If they felt welcome I am sure they would come...just thing that tat this point it could been seen as pretty intimidating...I know if I was a LFS employee reading this...to an extent with some of you I would feel somewhat like the enemy...

How would you feel in reverse roles..?????
reefman

Wait a sec... I thought that employees were paid to approach customers, not the other way around. I don't think it's my responsibility to make friends with them. :razz: I tell you what, when they start acknowledging my presence, I'll start acknowledging theirs. I don't think we've ever had a Calgary LFS employee show up on this board, or at least any that actually hung around. Yet we know they read this board. Why are they so afraid to speak up and defend or speak for themselves? :neutral:

As an aside, I do have a friend who is a former LFS employee, and was an LFS employee when I met him.

Don't take any of this personally, I'm still enjoying this thread a great deal. :smile:

Re: Me again
 

Just as a matter of interest, the filter I bought was from J&L, who were smart enough to do both Storefront, and MO. I could have walked into the store in Burnaby, and bought the filter at the same price as the sell it MO.


:rolleyes:

rebuttle
 

Yes...I can understand the employee is supposed to approach you..but with your attitude...I can see you just saying no when asked if they need a hand, not knowing if the employee can help you or not...I am not for sure about this, cause I do not know you as a person..just from what I have read on this board/thread. I think that you need to keep an open mind to what I am saying...

No it is not your responsibility to approach an employee...

Yes, I think some of you guys have a very closed mind as to getting to know a LFS employee...


BTW you did not respond to my question about reverse roles and you being A LFS employee that has little or no control over what goes on in your store reading the board....would you want to speak up????.

The best part is that I probably know everyone of you and have talked to you at one time or another in my time at LFS. Your guys's avatar should be your faces....haha mugshots....no, but really...knowing wwho is saying some of this stuff might make it easier to get some LFS guys on the board...


reefman

On a side note, I know some VERY knowlegable teen (16-21) reef aquarists. Sometimes tehse are the best tanks, the ones that have to get by on low income...etc...

rcipema,

I know...vancouver is a different market than Calagry though too....

WE have to take everything into consideration...and there are so many factors. . .

Makes it almost impossible to compare...

Also,

I have never been to JL...would love to go, but out of curiosity...how long do you have to wait there to talk to someone? Is it long? Do they have knowlegeable staff? Do they have anyone who is learning the ropes?

Reefman

Also...What came first the chicken or the egg?

All Employees with experience, were once employees with little or limited experience.

I should stop slandering teens, yes. I am sure there are fine aquarists who are hardly 20 years old.

What this conversation comes down to for me is that other than one single LFS in Edmonton, Albertan shops have consistent and rather serious issues that cause me to either not want to shop there, or not want to visit there at all.

Until I want to spend time in an LFS, a relationship between myself and the employee will not develop. Some of the responses to this thread are rather long and because of this I am probably missing the jist of what some people have said, but I don't think I should be expected to excuse the LFS employee with good intentions stuck in a sub-par store. If that were me, and I was losing sleep over the problem issues, I'd attempt to change the way the store was managed, and if that didn't work, I'd quit. If you're suggesting that I wouldn't talk to customers either if I worked in a store I felt bad about, you're partly right. At some point in time, if the situation was stressful enough, cognitive dissonance would kick in and I'd start thinking about the situation differently, ie. in a way that would reduce my anxiety over the situation.

The problem isn't the employee per say, however, it's the management. I will go out on a limb here and speculate that the reason why I've found so many LFS employees to be uneducated/unfriendly is because the hobbyists who are willing to spend the time to learn about the hobby and who have outgoing personalities to boot probably have better jobs because a. they are older b. they have skills that can earn them more than the $8/hour I expect most LFS employees are paid. The cream rises to the top right. I am fairly certain that if LFS' paid $60,000 salaries you'd see a lot of the people on this board applying. Occasionally you get a 16 year old kid who does care about the hobby and knows a lot. However he or she is the exception, not the rule.

You are correct in assuming that when asked if I need a hand, I probably say no. Because it's the truth. I don't trust that the fish aren't all chock-full of cyanide, I don't like the fact that there's a dried-up flame angel lying on the floor, and I don't like the fact that those mushrooms are $50 each. On the occasions that I have gotten into a discussion with an employee, the conversation seems to centre around the store's problem with valonia and hair algae, or the fact that they are trying to sell people a shark egg and a seahorse for their 50 gallon tank.

In short, we seem to have bad taste in our mouth regarding LFS' here in Alberta. We've presented our case, now it's the defenses turn to approach the bench.

You are not talking to a bunch of newbies here. :rolleyes: We've been the route. I know someone at every store I shop at here. That doesn't change the fact that they have some serious changes to make.

You should visit J&L. Say hi to Allen or John for me. They usually greet me as I walk in the door. :cool:
You sound rather young. Do I know you? :razz: :mrgreen:

Re: Me again
 

tut tut tut....you haven't done your homework..... :razz: :lol:

OUch...
 

Young...why might you say that??


PS I will be in chat for the next 1/2 hour - 45 mins

:lol: Of course not, don't you ever watch David Letterman ? :razz:

Re: Me yet again...post # 7 woohoo
 

You know what ? ... we are spinning our wheels with this dude :rolleyes: ... he keeps insisting that we should get all warm and fuzzy with LFS employee when we have all been down that road before to a greater or lesser extent ... as to ordering in acros there is only one store I know of that carries them and you have to take your money out and flash it around for him to get off his stool let alone talk to you :evil:
I have said before that I have tried to get LFS to order in coral/fish and the answer is they get what they get ... you have a particular store in mind that will order in what we want then quit beating around the bush and name the store and the employee to talk to otherwise no more crap about it cause this is not our first rodeo.

So Quinn makes a great suggestion of LFS employees coming to a Calgary meet and now they should feel intimidated ??? ... they are being invited for crying out loud ! ... how can you feel intimidated when you are being invited somewhere ???

Enough of this " intimidation BS " ... what are we going to do ? ... beat them up with questions ?

touchee
 

Ok...

Will consult with LFS.

Have been doing this withouit their consent..so who knows If I will be back.


Also, I know most stores are interested to get you in what you want...after all...you are a customer. I think you just gotta talk to the right person...Iknow whenever I go order...I will go over a special orders liskt that is made up by employees and customers....

just ask. . .

RM

Also.
 

Thankyou for the invitation...I can agree that could help to combat the intimidation,... but the way you speak about petstores :mad: ...I mean....I dont know...

Sorry for the 2 msgs

Also (I know agaiun)
 

He is definently not the one I am talking about (stool)

And he hates me !

haha

You don't make enough money for him to like you. See, I told you LFS employees are underpaid.

Come to the next get-together. Like Steve said, there's no point in continuing this any further.

By the way, you can edit messages and avoid having to double or triple post.

Is this thread still going on?! Are we any further ahead?

I would be THRILLED to see Danny (or anyone else from the industry) at one of our get-togethers...

:biggrin:

Regina! <*snicker*>

Re: rebuttle
 

I'm Almost in that age group :biggrin: I have a huge tank and make a very low income. I also know alot. Does that count for anything?

Alan, Progress I think = 0

Good luck ever seeing any of our LFS friendlies at our meetings. :rolleyes:

Re: rebuttle
 

:lol:

Mitch

Hey.. aussiefishy...picked up your card today... :razz:

I didn't add my .02 to this thread mainly because i don't really make my way to calgary as often as edmonton. With the Calgary stores each has a something to offer that the others can't. I'll stay clear of the other debate.

How ever going to edmonton yesterday I wasn't to impressed with AI.


But beening in Alberta we have to take what we can get.

:confused: who picked up my card?? i have only been asked by Bob who i am and what store i work at.... next time say hi ok?

and may i use this chance to thank you for people who welcome
me in this forum :biggrin: .

:eek: by no means i am an expert in marine aquarium, but i am very interested and learning everyday... and i have been ordering fishes and corals specially for customers before... majority of times i can tell customer about waittime and estimate price...

:cry: i think majority of customers have been "burnt" to some extend, that is why they are building up a very protective barrier. and i totally agree something needs to be done for communication and building their relationship with employee.

:smile: to be fair with the shop owner, it is the POV of a client and owner, i guess it is kind of touchy, because in the pet industry after-sales service is very important... maybe the club should issue an invitation to recommanded stores in calgary, or invite one store at a time.... to really talk to the owner and it's marine employees, to really see who is there for you.

cheers

It was almost closing time. You weren't there. :razz:

By the way, if you stick a bunch of anemones in a tank together, they will sting each other and die. You should rectify that. :confused:

oh! those anemones....

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,

we are not importing them to put into a tank for 5-6 years... things have to remember is the rate they are selling at, and also available space for anemones in a shop. from our experience, the amount of time each anemone in our shop is between 1-7 days. IMO, the stinging do not take long enough to harm anemones. (we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system).. and if you ever take up diving into the tropics, anemones are somehow aggregates together as well.

anyway, if space is available, as we are renovating, and building new stocking tanks, we can certainly do that.

something for your thinking, if a shop can retify every little things for customer without looking at reality such as cost and benefit analysis, would that be nice?? it will be like looking at a world where no tax, free education and transport, welfare (all in the good names in providing nice environment for us to live)... will anyone open a store without thinking about cost??

something to think about
:lol:

Cheers

If you read through the first five pages of this thread, you'll see that this topic has already essentially been covered. If the stores want the respect of the reefers on this board, they need to start being responsible. Even if you want to put profit ahead of livestock health, you still have to remember that a happy animal is a happy customer. You're an Economics major right?

The marine aquarium trade is fundamentally different from most other industries. If a car comes off the line a lemon, it can be replaced. If a poinsettia has a pest on it, the nursery can throw it out and grow another. But every animal that comes out of the ocean is one less in the ocean, and one less to propagate the species. The environmentalists know this, the governments know this, are the stores going to clue in before it's too late and harvesting/importing of livestock is completely banned?

after reading what i have wrote, sounds like everyone is thinking that i am defending the store owners... well, enough of this topic, some people think i don't read my topic thread... some think i might be thinking, business is business... then i have to defend econimic theory to some people i don't even know. but basically, it depends on if it is demand driven or supply driven market... as far as i know, i am still very green on everything, i am young and needs to learn alot.

i guess i will try my best to change the store owner POV, educate beginners one at a time, and try not to educate beginners wrong concepts. and do my bit to the marine industry.

it is tiring sometimes to see people just ignore the problem the industry/hobby are in, while only commenting wrong things people did. it sounds to me some individual is trying pick at tiny stuff while ignoring the fact that LFS are improving. :rolleyes:

:idea: encouragement is needed in this industry because workers earn low salary, and why are they staying?? maybe they can't get other job?? or they earn repect from their loyal clients??

I missed it what store he at. I was at big Al's met Nate there where a few neat things. I hope they where just gettin things moved around when I was. I hate the drive out there. Franco's will be gettin saltwater soon. I m not sure when soon is. She did offer to get me liverock. I need like 50 more pounds errr.

Someone is going to PM me soon and tell me to stop trying to keep this thread alive... :neutral:

I think it's safe to say that saying that staff stay because of client loyalty is grasping at straws (there's a tongue twister for you). I'd speculate it's more likely convenience (finding a new job takes more effort than staying at one you've already got) and having reached a glass ceiling (ie. inadequate skillsets to move any higher). Certainly there are some people who do it because they love it, but in our money-oriented society those individuals are few and far between.

As far as economic theory goes, this world hardly runs on supply and demand these days. Government subsidies, anti-monopoly laws and organized consumers groups have done away with that type of thing. If companies like Shell and Imperial Oil have become environmentally-minded to protect their reputation, there's no excuse for pet stores not to be. I think that the age of everything being a commodity to be bought and sold is coming to an end. The problem this industry has is greed. Cyanide use and unsustainable collection volumes are testimony to this. Everyone involved needs to become aware of this before any headway will be made. It's one thing to ship nets off to the collectors and try to certify all imports - how much is actually being accomplished. Unfortunately most of our livestock comes from southeast Asia, an area with larger problems than just unsustainable fish and coral collection. Europeans and North Americans are perfectly happy to buy natural resources and labour from former colonies. 3rd World nations are desperate for foreign investment, and they will sell their daughters, forests or fish to get it. We can't ask them to regulate everything on their end. At some point in time the nations bringing in the fish and livestock will have to start turning back unsuitable or at-risk species, and regulating how many of each animal enter the country. If animals keep getting sent from Indonesia or the Phillipines just to die in a glass box in Alberta, soon enough there won't be anymore.