wow, some people really have nothing better to do than to criticize others over matters that don't really concern them.
must be hard to breath in the thin air up there on the pedastal.
interesting that you would preach ethics about animals when 99.99 percent of us on this website have creatures that are most often ripped out of their home and put into glass boxes for our amusement.
did you "rescue" them???

personally, I don't care if the dog is show quality.
in fact, my dogs aren't show quality because they are red in colour and aren't recognized because of the colour...if I was a "real" breeder, they probably would have been euthanized.
but yes, they are healthy.
and yes, I will be selling them. (OMG, i know, i should burn for this..lol, imagine making profit off a pet.)
but, No, I was not trying to sell them via this thread.
Kijiji does quite well at that thanks - I guess not everyone wants to adopt dogs they don't know the history of.
I truly do admire the people who are willing to adopt a rescue dog. However, there are lots of people who want to have a puppy from somewhere other than the pound.
personally I would rather buy a puppy from someone like me than for 2 times the cost at a petstore.

thanks for everyone who has constructive input.(which is the reason for the thread)
Just so you know, the rice has appeared to do the trick and Ginger no longer has the runs.
the puppies are visibly growing already.
there appears to be one runt that I will need to keep an eye on.
Besides that, so far so good.

WELL SAID MY FRIEND! We just bought a Doberman puppy (and yes her ears ARE cropped) and man o man you should see the looks and comments we get. Good for you for doing what you believe! Im not discounting the hard work rescuers do, but i do believe that our choices are our own and if we really wanted the opinions or the beliefs of other people we would ask! And like a previous poster say if you have ethical problems with puppys this is certain the wrong hobby for you to be in! Good luck with the puppies and MORE PICS!!!

Beautiful pups!! I still think of the sweet pups you and Ginger raised last time.. jeeze if I were closer I would be all over getting one.. The mother looks like the sweetest dog!

Actually, I spend time doing Doberman rescue. Mostly the dogs that have the inherent diseases to the breed, like cardiomyopathy. A very difficult condition to be bred out because so many breeders are dishonest about the reasons their breeding dogs died.

Don't knock the reasons that there is health testing, and breed standards. I don't know about your breed, but I care about the improvement of mine.

I wasn't knocking health standards in the least and couldn't agree more about trying to improve the standards of any dog.(although there are standards I don't necessarily agree when it comes to the appearance of an dog.)
Nor did I suggest otherwise.
I just don't like being preached to.

and Borderjumper - Ginger is an awesome dog...i love her to bits.

Mostly I'm trying to stay out of this, but this is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Many (read tons) of PB "breeders" solely breed for profit, and sell to anyone with the cash. There are literally thousands of breed specific rescues across N America that are beyond capacity with discarded purebreds. People often buy a PB for some status, or otherwise irresponsible reason, and as soon as cute puppy becomes a dog with needs, it's off to the pound.
Private people should not breed dogs without a very compelling reason, by which they are actually contributing to the improvement of the breed. Bringing new pups into the world because there is "demand for product" is irresponsible. Period.

Posting in a public forum is asking. Id like to see the comments and looks you'd get with your ears cropped :)

all i can say is WOW
what a hornet's nest I have stirred up for asking for a bit of advice on helping my dog.
interesting to see the difference in opinions.
I still feel that I have done absolutely nothing wrong with breeding my perfectly healthy dog with another perfectly healthy dog which produced these beautiful little puppies.
how is a "recognized" breeder producing a better more socially accepted product.
I can pretty much guarantee that very very few breeders would spend more time and attention to their dogs and puppies than what I am giving.
so how how are they better??????
I will continue on with updates and pictures if interest is shown and if this thread doesn't get closed due to the stormy atmoshere.
thanks
Neal

ppl should be friggin happy gingers owners care and are asking questions to help these wonderful little lives thrive and go to good homes. i commend you

recently on one of my locksmith calls i rescued a rabbit and tarantula took the spider to pet store due to my wife fear of them. but the rabbit came home for us to care for we have a daycare and i thought the kids may enjoy a rabbit with the othe pets we have.

yellow lab, sheppard collie cross(rescued from a shelter as a pup very pretty but dumber than a rock), pionus maxamillion parot, and a rescued cat found in back yard starving, pluss my two fish tanks

well this rabbit not only was abandoned but two days later we found out its sex with six babies that appeared. all survived thankfully and now we are trying to find homes for them. thing is its not the animals fault for being left behind it was the owners. it was one of lifes little surprises as im sure 11 pups was a bit of a surprise as well.

i wish you the best with the pups i have too many creatures atm so i cant have one lol.

I think no matter what you do, be it breed dogs or anything else for that matter someone is always going to have an opinion as how you should be doing it. As long as your doing it for the right reasons, your producing a healthy happy specimen and are able to bring other people some joy along the way, I say why not.:wink: Good luck along the way!

Neal, I'm sorry, but you are, by definition, a back yard breeder. You are not a real breeder, with a breeding program and specific goals for your program. Nobody is saying you're a terrible person or that you don't love your dogs, but being a great pet owner and breeding fluffy are two different things.
Real (good) breeders take great care in selecting breeding parents, for reasons that give a very good probability to producing a specific outcome. They assess the genetic lines back several generations, looking at previously produced pups for good qualities and bad.
Overall, I think you've got a great response from this thread. If you'd posted it on a dog specific board, you would have got flamed right off the board :)
Regardless, at this point it's done, so good luck with your pups.

Except for the fact that in this thread Neal did not ask for anyones opinions on the ethics of him breeding his dog.... :wink:

+1

Unfortunately a publicly posted thread is subject to input by anyone, it's the whole point of public posting. And let's face it, it's not the first thread that has gone on a tangent, nor the last.
And the point of my posts, as well as Deb's, is to possibly inform potential puppy buyers of the problems brought about by backyard breeders and how it impacts the future lives of all dogs, in this case the puppies being bred as well as existing Bostons sitting in rescue right now, looking for a home.
Basically, hobbyist breeding of dogs is frowned upon by serious dog lovers, for a variety of reasons, and should be left to people that have dedicated years to their breeding program, resulting in improving the breed, not supplying a market demand.
This is not to suggest that anyone is a money grabbing puppy mill, but rather that perhaps many people in this position are ill-informed on the plight of the current dog population, much of which is a direct result of backyard, although well-meaning breeders.
And as a serious dog person, when something like this gets posted publicly, you're getting my opinion, solicited or not. And if just one person reading it thinks a bit harder about whether to breed or not, or where to purchase a puppy from, then I've contributed to the solution, not the problem.

Oh, math!! I love math. Thank you for your wonderful and informative post, it's really opened my eyes.

wouldn't have mattered, on a dog board he would have been crucified for even thinking of breading a dog that isn't a good example of the breed standard.

to me personaly as long as they find good homes and are not just sold for the buck, but the new home is throuraly checked out to ensure they will be taken care of then fine.

a good example is the golden tretiver board I am on, now that I have a purebred golden retriever I am starting to learn the things they are looking for and understand what they are talking about. one persone came on saying "we are going to breed so and so because she is such a good dog" well let the flames begin.. no clearences, checks or other wise, not a show quality dog, ect and on and on.. I haven't seen this person back on the board in the last 3 months..

Breaders like Brad said take there buisness pretty seriously with the goal of producing the perfect dog acording to the breed standard, and breading for any other purpose is ir responcible.

yes its true that breaders used to cull below standard puppies, but on the other side of things, where would these puppies end up if they didn't? we used to do the same thing on the farm if the pig had to many babies to take care of properly and so on. a good breader will have several dogs but only have 1 litter in a year from a spicific dog. I know where I got mine it was mom's first litter and she was 3 years old. they won't breed befor 24 months old as that is when they get the final clearances and even though they have 8 bitches they only have 1 or 2 litters a year as they only breed matches that they feel will better there dogs.

so ya there have been a couple negitive posts but, no where near what there could have been. the deed is done so it realy doesn't matter now. what matters is they are taken care of to the best of your ability and placed in what you feel is the best homes you can find. so enjoy them while they are young and don't get to attached :mrgreen:

Still waiting for pictures, take lots they change so fast.

Steve

Very well said.

And to the comment made "I can pretty much guarantee that very very few breeders would spend more time and attention to their dogs and puppies than what I am giving" by the OP...I am hoping this was said to indicate your dedication to your dogs rather than a slam at breeders. Most breeders I know, having worked in a very large veterinary hospital for 21 years were incredibly dedicated and loving with their litters.

This is a public forum where, just like ANY other public forum you will get the good and what you consider the bad response..there are many of us that are very passionate about people breeding animals of any kind....and with good reason. Many of us have extensive backgrounds with animals welfare and know the nasty statistics not just the cute statistics...just because all of the puppies get homes, DOES NOT mean that all those homes are going to be great, or that they are going to keep that dog, and that it will not end up in a shelter. That's where you can pray that it's a no kill shelter, and not one that has such a high turnover they can't keep them longer. Breeding dogs is about the next 16 years of each puppies life, not about selling them all and carrying on.

I do wish Ginger well...and hope that all the puppies are adopted into loving and long term households.

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents
im done and handing thread back to owner:) good luck with the puppies again

That's rather broad and judgmental ...and if there were statistics to show, I'm sure that this is far from the truth.

fair enough my apologies not all but some of them.

to further this, a good breader raises the puppies in there home and is dedicated to socilizing them. the only breaders that are in business and don't give just as much time if not more are the puppy mills and such.
People seam to thing breaders are business orentated, it is quite the opposit for good breaders they are dog people who spend thousands of bucks showing there dogs, researching and finding the perfect matches for there program and spend more time with there dogs than anyone normal person would. I will use the breaders of my dog for example.. they dont even advertise there puppies as they have a 2 year waiting list. I was very very lucky to get Kona when I did as they had both males in the little sold befor they were born and then one had to cancle out and I was just there at the right time as I didn't care weather I got a male of female as long as it was a golden. and they knew the issues with my last dog and that the family was devistated we had to take her back to the SPCA after 3 months of trying to retrain her. so they called the next person waiting for a male and asked if he minded waiting for another litter and boom we had a puppy. even though I knew the breaders they still came to our home and did a home check and talked to all of us to get a feeling of weather we would be a good match for one of there puppies, so if that isn't caring about there dogs and where they go... I don't know what is.

Steve

I agree. Although the difference, I suspect, is the long term goal of a specific breeding program. A breeder should also be responsible for all the pups for all the years they're around. They should be willing, and in fact demand that any dog that can't be kept is returned to them. It's a standard part of a well written contract. They should also gaurantee the pup from any genetic defects at any point in the dog's life. This means a refund or replacement pup. They should be ready and willing to help all owners for the next 15 years with anything to do with the pup. Idealy they're part of a breed club or organization, dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
I have border collies, and as a breed, they should only be bred after proving themselves on stock. This is either done via full time farm work, or placing high in at least regional open class trials. Then they are evaluated for temperment, physcal characteristics, etc, before a breeding match is made. This type of commitment and ability comes from years of experience, and takes dedication to a close to full time activity. Breeding should be left to the pros.
If someone wants to become a respected responsible breeder, then they should work under the mentorship of someone who is already there.
Breeding your pet dog, simply because you can, is wrong on many levels.

I don't expect to change many minds, but people need to think a bit harder about creating life, and what will come of those lives for the next decade and a half. There are hundreds of thousands of discarded dogs in shelters all across north america, many of them a direct result of breedings just like this. and if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

actualy most good breaders start out under mentorship from the breader they got there dog from, so right from square one they are reasearching genetics and matching. and also are installed with the ethics of there breadings. also another thing to look for is are they a member of the CKC, if not don't buy from them. not every member of the CKC will be perfect but if they get caught straying from the ethical standard they are removed so a long time breader that is a member of the CKC is a pretty good bet.

Steve

I'm not gonna start with kennel clubs, but we're gonna have to disagree on this one :)
Oh, and everything else you said you copied from me. Get your own stuff :)

Just a quick stat, the Boston Terrier Rescue of Canada (only one of many) takes in about 70 dogs a year. This does ot count those that they have to turn away due to lack of resources. 11 of them may not get forever homes now. Just something to thik about....

Um the kennel clubs don't set the breed standard they just adopt it. the breed standard is set by the original creator of the breed when it is reconized as a breed.

the breed standard defines what the dog is intended to do and the body make up that optimizes it for its intended purpose. a well writen standard will say how the required feature enhances the ability of a dog. you can think that a standard isn't important but the people that feel that are the ones who have dogs that don't meat the standard. are they still nice dogs.. yup, great for pets and companions. heck I am not even sure if mine meats the standard yet, from what I can tell he does or is close but I won't know till he hits his full high and weight, and gets all his coat. do I intend on showing him.. nope, I bought him as a companion/pet so I could care less.

as for guarentees it is pretty hard to find a life time one.. usaly it is a year or two, but I have seen some lifetime ones.. I goess it would depend a lot on the breed also, we got a two year one.. basicly will pay for medical up to the purchase price of the dog or replace the dog if it comes to that.

Steve

ya, because I have a time machien and can go foreward in time read you post then come back and post it two seconds after you did :mrgreen:

there are theings about kennel clubs that are good and bad, the bad is that they make a lot of money for a non profit organization. also there are bad kennel clubs and good ones, take the CKC for eg.. there are two, canadian and contanental.. canadian = good, contanental = bad when it comes to ethics.

the canadian does provide a valuable service in regestration and such and a lot of resorse links but they do make money off sanctioned events.

Steve

Steve, some breed standards may be ok, I can't keep track of all that stuff, but there are many breeds (GSDs come to mind) that have been ruined by the show ring and kennel clubs.
Coming from a Border Collie background, the KC is pretty much the mortal enemy of our dogs. I'll email you an article offline that goes into all the gory details.
As for gaurantees, genetic abnormalities should be covered for life. In BCs, if both parents are clear for CEA, then the pups are clear, and there should be no problem gauranteeing that. If a breeder won't, I'd questin whether the testing was done at all.

This is getting ridiculous!!!! :mad2: The poor guy wasn't letting his dog roam free while in heat. He planned for a litter of puppies, and ended up with many! They are very cute. Good luck with them. :smile: More pictures please.

The ridiculous part is someone breeding as a part time activity, for reasons not yet determined in this thread. Seriously, post this kind of thing on a dog board, you'd get toasted. And the obvious amount of uninformed people replying dictates that the things being said get said. I hae nothing against Neal, I'm sure he means well and didn't let a monetary calculation decide for him, but hobbyist breeding is a major contributor to the over population of dogs in our country.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone, or even condemn anyone, I'm just representing this scenario from the dog's perspective. There are already too many dogs, and adding to that number for anything but the right reasons (contributing postively to the breed as a whole) should be discouraged. And even if Neal sets out to be a responsible breeder, it's a huge task to track all the pups for their entire lifetime. Which you need to do, to determine any issues that have arisen from the breeding. I can give countless examples of well meaning (and not so well meaning) breeders falling down in their responsibilities. And in the end, the only one that suffers is the dog. And ultimately, this should be about the dogs, not about someone selling pups, or someone wanting a cute little puppy. It's about a living being not getting a life they deserve due to lack of foresight into their futures. So for the dog's sakes, I just ask that everyone gives a little more thought to how and where puppies end up.

Just so I get this all straight with the Holier than Thou breeders of the board. No one but you experts whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies??? I wonder if the Labra-Doodle breeders are included in your clan?

Hmm, antagonism is great. Let's go with it. Each dog has a purpose (you have a dog, right?). The purpose of the dog should be maintained or improved upon in a breeding program. We'll use Bostons, since this is what the thread is about. Bostons were originally bred for the show ring. In this case, true afficiandos of Boston Terriers would assert that only top placing dogs in nationally recongnized shows are bred. This keeps the true nature of the breed intact. We also want to weed out cataracts (both juvenile and adult type), cherry eye, luxating patellas, deafness, heart murmur, and allergies. Parents and grand-parents checked and cleared? Right. Next. Temperment. Do all the lines of this litter have the desired temperment? Hope so, I see lots of dogs discarded for temperment issues, and repeat breedings done to create more problem dogs. Is the breeder prepared to be responsible for the life of all pups, following up as needed?
anything doodles are just wrong, not even gonna get into that.

But holier than thou, not so much. Holier than you? I'd say absolutely. I'm standing up for dogs that don't get a say in any of this, you're just shooting your mouth off on the Internet. If you've got some facts, bring them, if you've just got a mouth, go away.

sorry if I haven't been absolutely clear here. Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying.

You see the thing is, this is NOT a dog board. So why is it your job to "toast" the poor guy? The tread was about having too many puppies, and trying to get advice on how to help them and the mother. Kudos to him for asking for help! Shame on you for being so harsh and judgmental! The problem is not hobby breeders, it is the irresponsible pet owners who let their bitches run wild while in heat! I have gotten 2 dogs from breeders and have NEVER had follow up with them. Both were very caring, we were interviewed several times and ended up on a wait list forever. But that didn't insure follow up by the breeder once, not to mention the lifetime of tracking you preach! Buying from a breeder does not nessecaraly ensure that the dog will have a home it's entire life. Sometimes things happen outside controllable parameters. One can only hope that a puppy is finding a loving home for life.
Neal, Glad to hear mama is better. Did you try the pumpkin trick? Have fun with your pups.

My turn now. See you have a Bichon and you have a Shih-Tzu. Purpose of both to 90% of world is family pet. Both have some problems in the breed such as nasal in the Shih-Tzu. Cross breed them and you usually end up with a great family pet with few health issues. But to you perfect people this should not be allowed and little Sally should have Shih-Tzu with bad nasal problems. Not to mention how few actual genetic breeders there are vs how many people only want a good healthy family pet.

And that's why I'm being nice :) I agree, nothing is perfect, and not all breeders are the same, or do what should be done. Some are, some aren't. One of my dogs came from a BYB before I knew any better, and he's the best dog in the world. but I needed some info fromthe breeder, and got nothing.
My other pup came from the scenario that I "preach" about, and I do have the support for the lifetime of the pup. I hope I don't need it, but it's there. And the owners of the parents both follow up to find out how the dog is developing, for future breeding concerns. Just basic responsible stuff. Can we expect that this will ever become standard? I doubt it.

And as I said, this isn't against Neal, it's a general overview designed to make people think a little more about choices. You're right, it's great of him to come here looking for help, but to me, that says he might not have been as prepared as he should have been for breeding. But it's done, and we all hope the pups get great forever homes and live long happy lives.

But in my community of peers, we're heavily involved in dogs and see the tragedies daily of inappropriate breeding. Some with our own dogs, and tons of horror stories from people we meet at trials, tournaments, etc.

I'm advocating for the dogs that can't do it for themselves, and if people's feelings get hurt along the way, I'm sorry, but they'll get over it. The dogs often suffer things they can't get over.
Again, yes, kudos to Neal for asking for help, it's a sign he's going in the right direction. However, I question the reasoning for even starting the journey, based on my previous points.
Trust me, I'm a realist, and I know the majority of people don't have a clue what I'm going on about and think I'm nuts (maybe I hang out with dogs too much), but some people are going to think about it, and maybe not breed fluffy to that cute little guy down the street that does neet tricks. And maybe we'll have a few less dogs looking for homes down the road.
I'm not trying to tell people what to do, I'm asking people to think about more than themselves. Not too much, IMO.

I also find it quite amusing that people point to pet store selling puppies as the major cause of shelters being crowded yet you refer to fluffy down the street being bred. I visit shelters and the SPCA very regularly and very rarely do I see many small breed dogs in their windowns yet when I visit pet stores I find only small breed dogs in their windows????

If you met me, you'd realize I really am perfect. Thanks for recognizing that.
So in your example, I have to question how the shih-tzu got to be that way? Inappropriate breeding perhaps? Here's an idea. If you just want a family pet, I can send you a link to petfinder, they have a few listed. Lots of designer colors and stuff, I'm sure you'll find something you like. They even have puppies.
In defense of you though, thanks for representing fact. I'm trying hard to be non confrontational, which is challenging for me :)

P.S. I'm not really perfect, I just know a lot about dogs, and this is often the subject of discussions over coffee :) It really is a problem, and usually only discussed on dog boards, so it's refreshing to be able to present this point of view to non dog people. Hopefully some get it, those that don't, I get it....

My parents bought a small breed dog from a pet store. It died 3 weeks later of exploding heart. Blood all over my mom as she held it. Ya, it never made it to the pound.
The problem with pet store puppies, in general, are health issues. They often come from puppy mills that mass produce without regard to any of the issues discussed. It's a for profit business model.
Most times you visit a city pound, you only see mutts. This is due to the purebreds being shipped out immediately to breed specific rescues who are much better equipped to find the dog a proper home. Like I said, BTCC has 70 Boston Terriers a year come through their rescue. Border Collie rescues all across N America get thousands of PB BCs each year. Call any small breed specific rescue and ask how many they process, I bet you'll be shocked.

Little general with your thoughts on pet stores I think. And that sample size of your parents is conclusive evidence. I think when you consider they number of Boston puppies born each year finding 70 go to rescue is not exactly a large number not than any number is good. I have heard of many people's stories over the years about health issues with so called registered professional breeders. I don't however jump to the conclusion that all are bad!!