And, to add further, I certainly appreciate Marie's input, anyone looking at this should have multiple views for review.
And as others (Myka comes to mind) can attest, feeding raw is certainly a commitment and requires care and planning, from food prep, selection, cleanliness and a willingness to go to the grocery store if you forgot to thaw dinner. I have to rotate containers, keep track of dates, long term variety, dog weight, etc. It can be a fair bit of extra work over scooping a cup into the kibble bin. And perhaps for results that might not be immediately obvious (other than poop scooping!!).
and if you get to absorbed into typing about it, the dogs could end up eating butter chicken! Be right back.....doh

Also - you cant tell what a human is eating just by looking at them either... that goes for ANY animal really... so what the heck is this 'you cant tell the difference from looking at them'? Other than being on a completely improper diet, most animals look about the same even on different diets... INCLUDING people. And we are no more/less developed than any other species out there... our brain is developed, we stand and have opposable thumbs... we also have back problems because we stand (which our bone structure is not specifically designed for)... So I do not see how 'appearance' is a good basis for saying raw is better or worse.

And many people do live to be 100 eating mc-donalds all their lives... but just cause thats true does not make it a good idea.

The vast majority of people feeding raw prefer it to poor kibble... I highly doubt this is any sort of placebo effect.

Cheers,

Chris

Just to clarify, this would mean never at the same time... although you can feed say, raw in the morning, and kibble at night. Like Myka said it has to do with digestion rates... provided either is digrested before the other is ingested... there is no problem with mixing.

Just to clarify further, after much longer threads on dog specific boards, lots of raw feeders do (or claim to) feed at the same time and report no issues.
Goes to show that the science here is a bit young :)

but better safe than sorry, I wouldn't feed raw on top of kibble..

ya I was just going to say, there re several people on the GR board that feed raw/kibble mix, same dish same time and they have for years.. sooooo.. why knows.

Hey Brad you feeding the puppy raw yet?

I got new pics of Kona now.. I can't believe the difference in 1 month.. you don't notice it till you look at pictures.

Steve

lol, I notice it coming home from work!!

Ya, she's weaning over to raw now, although she's missing a few teeth :)

I am going to have to go get another bag of regional red soon. burnt through about 1/2 a bag in a month, but I just upped the food from 1.5 cups a day to 2.5 cups. little bugger won't stop growing :mrgreen:

Steve

Having seen what passes through dogs digestive tracts over the years I have a hard time believing they can't handle eating raw food and kibble at the same time :lol:

But the basis for the arguments people give for feeding raw is that a dog has a shinier coat, don't shed as much, have less allergies ect. I have not yet seen that myself.

I can't comment on dogs having more stamina and energy because I need them to stand still and therefore have no idea if its true or not

and you can tell by "looking" that some kids have been raised on mickey dee's hamburgers

It`s along the same line as humans we`re supposed to eat (preferably raw) fruit and veggies 1 hour before or 4 hours after any meats, grains, etc because of different digestion rates. However there are `no issues` there is optimal absorbency when consumed `properly`.

I can't quite agree with that being from RAW diet, people who also switch to a high quality kibble, report the same things. I think it is from moving from crap to good stuff weather it be raw or kibble.

Steve

that doesn't make since to me, sorry, but even different meats, bone, fat, ect all have different absorbency and digestion rates. I have never even seen this mentioned in anything I have read.. interesting though

Steve

No you inferred that dogs live longer on a raw food diet and I felt a need to clarify that people who choose kibble aren't necessarily consigning their pet to a premature death



And if you keep rolling your eyes like that, you'll give yourself a headache :razz:

Hehe I couldn't agree with it either.


I still have to say that the biggest factor in a healthy, shiny coat is fresh air and exercise. I can tell always which dogs belong to the elderly and the shut-ins

ya the clean ones :mrgreen:

There's nothing wrong with the smell of good honest dirt...and ditch slime. :lol:

The point to feeding, or not feeding raw with kibble is that it's suggested that if you feed kibble, then raw on top of it, the raw gets "backed up", allowing harmful bacteria to develop. Not so much about absorbtion rates.

Steve, my observations are when switching from the high qualiy kibble to raw, so for me there is that "next level". Before I started raw though, I had people stop me at the lake to ask what I feed my dogs, because they were so much shinier than their dog. Most people would then make some comment about my kibble choice being so expensive, etc....

I considered the BARF diet, but with young kids around and potential health risks and questionable benefits I decided to buy a quality commercial dog food.

http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm

Seeing as we are all self-assumed "professionals" on the subject this thread will go around in circles unless by some coincidence a canine nutritionist pops by. ;)

Steve, you can find a tonne of information if you Google "fruit on empty stomach". Of course you will find all sorts of varying information on the internet (like any other topic these days). :rolleyes: I see I did say fruits and veggies...it's just fruits. I didn't mean to put veggies there. My thoughts are not with the forums these days...

For the record, when I fed raw I used a "Prey Model + brown rice" diet, not BARF (Bones And Raw Food- raw food being small amount of fruits and veggies, but still no grains or carbs). Some people will also do BARF + brown rice, or just Prey Model. I found my dog needed some carbs to burn off (I chose cooked brown rice) or she would become too lean on the raw diet (read: very skinny).

I'm looking for an online course, hopefully I can be a "pro" real soon :)

Hopefully the theme of my comments comes through, in that feeding raw is a personal choice, AFTER one has done lots of research and comes to their own conclusions. And since thoughts and opinions vary widely, one needs to accept that what they might believe today is certainly up for review tomorrow.
Everyone should do what they feel is best for their dog, and if their is any doubt, keep researching to fine tune your choice.

The differing opinions in this thread are great, it gives anyone interested lots of sides to look at.

Marie, Steve's post is in fact what I meant. I just directed it toward raw since thats what this thread is about. :smile:

Lol!

My beloved rottie Diva, was never vaccinated, never ate dog food, and drank filtered water all her life. I thought she was going to live a good long time since I made darned sure I did everything right... she was dead shortly after she turned seven due to Lymphoma :cry:

I did everything the pure and "right" way... it did not matter.

I feel that food and other choices for a pet, are the owners choice. If someone makes a suggestion you have the final say on whether or not to listen. Just try not to shoot the messenger. Remember that if you you get defensive to someone, expect that they get defensive right back.

When it comes to my own choices, I may be a bit biased since my father and sister are both veterinarians (and my dad owns several vet clinics) but I feed my cat 'vet food'. This is my choice but the fact I get it from my family (who recommend it to me) for the great price of free doesn't hurt either. My father has no qualms about what the owners decide to do with their animals and merely makes suggestions. He is, quite simply, just there to make sure your pet is healthy.

I also saw earlier in the thread someone mention about vets selling food may be a conflict of interest. This may be the case some places but when I asked my father he simply stated he'll order anything a client wants, he keeps stocked what him and his other vets recommend (or what his regular customers buy) and that his markup on food is really low (again, this is likely different in other places). So if a client decides to buy food elsewhere it's not like he's losing money. His operations are in smaller centers though so he carries it too because sometimes he's the only place in town that doesn't sell your 'purinas' and other such foods.

So make your own choice. If your pet is happy that's all that matters. There's 2 sides to a coin and you'll easily find people who say both good and bad about EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING, it's just the people saying the negative things are usually louder.

How many of you guys "make" your own raw food diets? I just learned that a good friend of mine has done this for years now. I knew she fed raw foods but I never realized she "made" them herself, portioned it and froze it each month.

She didn't have time to get into details but said basically she does 70% lean meat, 20% vegetables and 10% organ meat. She changes the meats up often but I didn't get a chance to ask her what kind of meats she uses.

Are most of you doing it this way or buying from a store?

I do both.... If I had more time I would make 100% of my raw food from scratch. But alas, we buy pre-made raw medallions (lamb, venison, or rabbit) with proper percentages of ingredients. I would say the dogs get this 60% of the time. 30% of the time is high grade EVO or Orijen kibble. 10% of the time we buy ground meat (organic beef or buffalo) and I add some veggies and amino acid/enzyme oil. Keep in mind we have tiny dogs (5,9, and 15 lbs). If they were bigger I would be more inclined to give them raw meaty bones, chicken backs, or other large food to chew, and probably make big bulk portions of raw.

Some people think I am snooty for only eating organic meat and trying to feed my dogs 100% wild or organic meat.... but thats a mentality that is dooming our food industry, the lives of millions of animals, our environment, and our own health. DON'T EAT IT YOURSELF OR FEED YOUR DOGS FACTORY RAISED FOOD ANIMALS! read read read before you consume any meat products and find out exactly where they come from. it is so unbelievably important.

I won't even touch the corn and soybean industries... that is a whole other can of beans. :twised:


;)
-Diana

We make the majority of our dog's raw diet (probably 90%) and use mostly wild meats or locally farmed stuff.

Ok thanks guys.

So since my puppy is only about 12 lbs and shouldn't get bigger than about 15 and I do have the time to make my own, I may go that route if we decide to feed RAW which my fiancee and I both like the idea of.

What are the best meats to feed? I know some are mentioned above. We only eat organic meats and would do the same for the dog.

Do I need to go as far as getting meats from a butcher or are there enough meats available at a regular grocery?

I know the basics of handling and I also know dogs and cats do not have problems with salmonella, e coli and other bacterias that humans do because of their shorter intestines but what about after a dog or cat has eaten raw foods and they either lick you or chew on toys that you will come in contact with? How much of a worry is stuff like this? I am by no means paranoid of this but curious.

I found an interesting link about feeding cats raw chicken, basically just warmed up in water for a bit and then chopped, bones and all. The cats in the video seemed to love it! Kind of cool to hear them crunching on the bones. I think our cats will stick to EVO but it was pretty cool to see.

Seems to me that the pet food industry has done a great job over the years to make people think you HAVE to feed their products and raw diets are unnecessary or risky when in fact I feel the opposite is probably true. They obviously have a lot to loose if people realize raw foods can be safe and healthier.

One thing I likened it to when I was trying to convince my fiancee that it was something we should try was how I feed my fish. When I started in the hobby, I feed nothing but store bought frozen and dry foods. My fish looked ok. Then I learned vitamins were a good addition and the fish looked a little better. But it wasn't until I started to make my own foods from a huge variety of fresh seafoods that the fish really looked great. Brighter, thicker, healthier, ect. Basically the RAW food diet of marine fish :razz: I would never feed large fish such as tangs anything again but chopped up fresh seafoods. I just don't have any large fish right now :neutral:

I buy chicken backs by the 40# case, which is the bulk of their diet. I then supplement with beef heart, kidney, liver and egg. When salmon are cheap, I buy whole fish for them. They get everything whole, so bones and all. Oh, and they love sardines packed in water.
For snacks, I have a freezer of venison carcass and lamb neck. For me, I buy meat at the grocery store that is marked down, we get a couple bucks off when it's got 2 days or less on the expiry date.

Some things to be cautious about; salmon must be frozen for 24 hours before feeding for risk of worms (forget the type). Pork should be frozen (deep freeze) for 30 days to kill any potential parasites (forget this type too :)).
My vet did express concerns over dogs licking kids after eating for bacterial contamination.

I wouldn't buy the premade stuff since I don't know what goes in it, and it's more than double what my cost is now. For average consumer, it might be about the same cost as store bought meat.

I switch things up quite often. I cook my dog's food though, which some people don't agree with. Mine eat our food, left overs, chicken necks and backs, liver, and whatever else I can throw into the mix. Right now, I have 200 pounds of ground turkey carcasses that my dogs refuse to eat... makes me mad but what can you do?

Once in a while I'll give my bigger girl a whole chicken, now that's something to hear!!
First time I fed whole bones was kinda gross, and makes you think what a dog could do to your fingers if it was so inclined!

ship it to other dogs :)

If you were close we could work something out. The stuff if organic and ground very fine, very little fat and looks wonderful!!! I mixed it with garlic, and sweet potatoes and cottage cheese to make it enticing for them. Then I even made gravy to put onto it for crying out loud. My dogs are the best and most perfect dogs ever, so their picky eating is their down fall for me. If I allowed it and it was good for them, they would eat bison liver every day.

I paid forty cents a pound for the turkey... just brought some up from the freezer to try with them again. Rotten buggers...

Yup. dogs are ungrateful monsters. One of mine won't touch the venison...
I feed whole, so wouldn't use it, but I'm sure you could find someone that could feed their dogs with it.

They are so perfect in every way, I would rather deal with their picky eating instead of other things people deal with. The turkey is in the freezer and I will figure out a way to entice them to eat it. I guess I could starve them and give them no choice, but I just cant bring myself to do that to them.

I don't eat things I do not like, and don't want to be expected to eat it either...:wink:

They do have me whipped in the food department for sure.

the problem with that is last time I went to the local market and looked at a free range organic chicken, I would have needed a bank loan! I'm not sure what prices are like that side of the water, but I can't afford to eat anything but factory cows and chickens :(

This is so true. After I said I would feed the dog organic, my fiancee reminded me how much it costs. I guess its a bit of a lie to say we ONLY eat organic meat. We try to eat only organic but at times its just too expensive. I also eat out a lot and don't pay attention if its organic or not.

I understand the reasoning behind organic meat and I agree that its something that more people should be eating BUT if prices stay as they are now, people cannot be expected to make the switch and I doubt a high percentage of people ever will. Its just one of those things where it certainly may be better but the cost just doesn't allow most people to buy it. Many families can barely afford to buy enough "regular" meat for the whole family as it is now, let alone organic.

I know its expensive, but humans don't need to eat meat every day. I've cut down drastically on meat intake to be able to afford organic/free range/wild meat. We eat meat maybe 3 times a week, and thats all you need if you provide yourself with other protien sources such as eggs,nuts, seeds, beans, etc etc.

I understand also that we do not have kids to feed (other than the furry ones!) so its easier for us to eat more expensive foods. But honestly, since going organic/cutting out most meat our grocery bills have not gone up. Its all about portion control. :)

A great movie to watch is called Food INC. Its not super gross so don't worry too much about that- other than maybe when they show you how they kill entire herds of pigs at once using a giant garbage press (i will never in good conscience eat pork again). It talks about making smart choices at the grocery store, and a little more about the American way of producing food that is just spiraling out of control. Animals do not need to be treated in such awful ways, and you vote 3 times a day.

:)
-Diana

So I guess the concerns about contamination are not a real concern if you don't have kids?

For those of you who were feeding kibble and then switched to a RAW diet, how did you do so? Slowly or just all at once? My puppy is somewhat allergic to his current food anyways, so I was going to just basically switch over all at once for his morning feeding and keep feeding the kibble at night and then eventually just do one feeding of the RAW a day.

Any other advice? I think we have decided to make our own. Still feel a little nervous about getting it right...I think because all the sites I have read and all the advice here actually make it sound so much simpler than I thought it might be.

I hear ya and I wish organic were cheaper because I think many people would make the switch. You know how our society is though...out of sight, out of mind. Not an excuse but its tough these days to get people thinking about what meat they should choose when they are struggling to feed the family. I agree with you 100% though and I have seen some of the clips from that documentary.

I don't eat meat everyday, maybe 3-4 times a week. Never in the morning and rarely at lunch. I don't think our grocery bill has gone up a heck of a lot but we do not go to the grocery and buy a bunch of food at once, I go almost daily as its just down the street, so I do notice a difference if I buy organic meat. Again, not complaining but I know many people won't buy it whether they can afford to or not.