Dave, as long as a thread is not coming out and accusing anyone of anything illegal, and you want to monitor it, feel free to discuss as you like. If a poster doesn't agree with a vendor's claims, then the poster can choose not to purchase from them. Not accuse them of lying, stealling, cheating, or any other immoral behaviour.

I'll start...

Personally, if I see a pretty frag for a price I'm willing to pay, I don't care what it's called, where it came from or how it got here. I have corals shipped fedex from the states, even a frag brought up in a film container in a shirt pocket. If someone wants to call it the the ORA Tyree LE anything, good for them.
As long as the frags I'm buying originated in captivity, I don't care what the rules say.
Carry on.......

Reported Post from Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board
 

Moderators/Administrators:

Further to the thread review request at apx. 9:05pm yesterday (as per the canreef email I received - and you were all sent), as requested, please accept the above noted reply to this thread as my response.

Further, I do not fully understand the reason portion of the email, so if it is not adequately addressed I apologize:

This is the reason that the user gave:
This vendor doesn't get it..... ??

The reason lacks adequate detail so I am not sure what I am to make of this, or specifically what it is I do not get.

I trust everything you require to complete the review of this thread is contained in my post above. If not, please contact me or post in this thread. Thanks.

I think the problem lies in the name but also the value associated with that name. When a vendor uses the prefix ORA, Tyree, Ming,etc when marketing thier frag, that prefix is used for the sole purpose of marketing said product and to possibly add value to that product.

We all know that many people have sunset montis that did not come from Tyree, some come in with Indo aquaculture and such, the ocean is a big place. But I can also buy Armani clothing off ebay for 1/4 the price, did they come from the same factory as ones i would pay full price for at retail, probably not, do i care? No, but that is my own priority.

Some people though will buy an Armani product and want to pay that extra $ to make sure it is "authentic", that is thier own priority. Now what happens when a retailer that normally sells authentic Armani product starts selling ebay knockoff for the full price of authentics? The consumer does not know the difference, but does that make it right? But really how silly it is for a consumer to pay so much more for a product becuase of the authenticity of the name. One could argue that a consumer such as that begs to be taken advantage of.

I would not support this type of mislabeling for more profit activity nor would I support a company or individual that arbitrarially bent the rules to bring something across the border illegitimatly.


ramble ramble ramble

I don't know exactly what the whole story is here or even what the topic is but I'll say this,
I believe the mods on this site do a pretty good job, and the site is run well. I don't agree with everything done but that's life, a small group of people will never be able to satisfy everyone else in the world. Just like government which most people rarely have anything good to say about. So first off good job guys, we all deserve a little ego stroke once in a while :wink:

The bottom line is the Mods run the site, they can do what they choice and will continue to do so if they believe it's what is best for the site. Do they owe explanations, well not really that's their decision but with every decision comes consequences. So mods don't get so uptight when people question your actions if you choice to go this route, this is a natural response.




A couple from this thread alone :croc:

Well ,I never question why I'm here, and I certainly attempt to explain things thoroughly the FIRST time, but for people that keep whining about the same topic, after getting my nice answer, get the revised short abrubt answer.
We do make choices, we work within our given time on the board, and sometimes it's just not practical to offer an explanation for our actions. and trust me, it's a rare occasion when I notify the poster of a removed thread, where they just say ok, thanks for letting me know. More often than not, we get, well, you suck. It's a free country. I think I should be able to say what I want. It goes on and on. And seriously, I don't feel like spending my free time arguing about a point that isn't going to change. I had to argue with one person for weeks because he didn't like the rules, or my decision to enforce said rules. It's really sad sometimes. And yes, lots of qualified people could do this. You could do this. And 5 years from now, your posts would sound exactly like mine. Honest. Like I said, we don't just roll dice. We discuss, at length, most decisions that we make on the board. It's not the thankless job it's made out to be, it's mostly fun, we have a great time, and we've all met a lot of good friends doing this. Sure, some people get personal, not sure why, it's just an internet board. I know of some people here that just hate my guts, and have never even met me. Seriously, lighten up. We're all here for a common purpose, and the role the staff play is to make sure we stay on course for that purpose, and attempt to create an environment enjoyable to the majority of the members. Unfortunately some toes may get stepped on along the way, but that's the nature of the beast.
K, gotta go work for a living now... :)

Ok - the intent of this thread still being open is not to review mod/admin performance, or interpret tones of members. I think we can all agree this site is the best you will find in Canada, so lets get back to the topic. In fact, I will open a new thread later today and close this one.

The first point below - well I could not disagree with you more about the sunset monti (being a bit of a coral freak myself). I have never seen a nice aquaculture nice sunset monti come through Toronto, not to suggest they have not, but I have made it to as many coral shipments as anyone over the last 8+ years. They do not aquaculture a good one, that is why it always retains it's value. Any other corals - ya I could see your point and agree with you. Your second point...ya that gets under my skin as well. We can discuss in another thread devoted to it a little later today.

Read tone how you want, but coming back with a low blow which you know nothing about is pathetic. At one point I was part owner and a sponsor of that ONE site which I left by choice for good reason as I didn't want to support the things that were occurring behind the scenes anymore.

I was sticking up for the mods, if you'd only read what I said you'd know that rather than reading between the lines finding tone that doesn't exist and then threatening me. Real nice, is this the essence of Canreef?

This discussion shall now be limited to PM. Does not belong in a wickedfrags therad. I think you can both agree on that...

The new thread to discuss the real topic, well that will be up shorly. Thanks.

I agree with the mislabeling thing of course, but bending senseless stupid rules is on of my hobbies. :wink:

Well what happened to taking this stuff to PM's... I for one (and will only speak for myself) have found this site (and the mods) to be a great resource for information and support. I would really like to see this conversation continue (with regards to the corals not the mods). If there is still a need to debate the moderator actions, opinions or otherwise can you take THAT elsewhere so the rest of us can continue to learn and discuss what is affecting our hobby.

My apologies Dave. I didn't realize this was in your forum until now. I thought it was just a thread discussing moderation, which to be fair sounds about right.

Your CITES?
 

Dave,

I've just visited your website and it seems that you have a lot of nice corals. Not to accuse you of anything but in order for me to feel comfortable doing business with you; could you please verify for me that these corals were imported legally from yourself or your supplier?

Thank you.

Bending stupid rules in your personal life is one thing, bending such rules at work or in a business environment is another story though!

I agree with you, the discussion of mods and staff if for PMs. The new thread regarding corals will be up after lunch and will stay on topic - I will take the time to ensure this happens (it will be in my forum.

Pleased to hear you find the site a great resource and support, it's a big part of the site! Cheers.

Yes Dave, I have been thinking about purchasing one of your Pink Lemonade acro frags, but at $110 for a "small" frag I really would like some verification it is in fact a Pink Lemonade acro? I see that you have listed yourself as the farmer of this coral?

Also is this a freshly cut frag or encrusted? I want to stay away from freshly cut and shipped frags this time. Lat time according to you my WYSIWYG frag must have died. before shipping. so you cut a fresh one and shipped it to me .. and it arrived as nothing more than a bare rock.

Hey RAD. Thanks and I agree some nice pieces there for sure.

For those who may not be aware, I have a full-time job and am not a store front, I generally just sell frags as I grow them out. I do not import corals from suppliers (don't have the time, money or space) so I do not deal with CITES permits. The corals I sell have been already landed in Canada so they have gone though that process with the LFS.

Come shipment day here in Toronto, well I am standing in line at the LFS with everyone else! Dave

LOL! Bending rules in my business is nearly impossible anyway, the government is so far up my a$$ it hurts to bend over... still, if it's a senseless rule :redface:

There's so many regulations (and a government bureaucracy to go with each one!) I probably break a few every day and don't even know it.

Gotta go... so many rules, so little time.

Cites
 

Could you kindly ask your supplier to forward you a copy of his/her CITES for me? You could PM or fax me a copy.

Thanks and looking forward to it as I would like to spend quite a considerable amount of money with you just as long as you can show me documented proof that you or your supplier brought it in legally.

Thanks for your time.

Pleased to hear you are considering another purchase - last time you posted you indicated you would never be buying from me again and sold your credit. Glad things can change!

I can verify my pink lemonade is in fact my pink lemonade if that's what you mean...and I can show you a picture of the colony it will be coming from. I generaly just make up the names for ordering purposes (such as the lariat zoa - named after the truck I just bought), or if it is visually simalar to other popular corals.

Also - the frag may be a little on the larger side, my colony is getting quite large now. I can prepare the frag for you and mount it however you like - give it a 5-8 days and it should be encrusted on whatever substrate you prefer, liverock or a aragonite disk. I don't keep frags of this ready for shipment - I really do not like fragging this coral.

Again, sorry about that last frag, I ended up losing the entire colony. Make things worse, it was one of the wife's favorite.

I think someone is trying make a point... and a good one!

Who was it that said a long time ago "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Give me a minute, it's come to me :mrgreen:

You and me both - lots of rules in government (I work in healthcare),

As noted above, my suppliers are the Local Fish Stores here in Toronto. I have in fact asked for copies of CITES to investigate the possibility of re-exporting frags to the US -ya it did not go over well as the CITES contains the suppier name...and the local stored here are kinda protective of that as you may be able to appreciate! (only as good as your sullier here in Toronto)

Hope this adequately answers your question. Dave

No worries - and ya, I started a new thread in my forum to continue a discussion I though was important (ya kinda a trouble-maker myself!). Thanks. Dave

Your wrong Dave, I didnt sell my credit, I gave it away. Yes I was quite upset that the zoa frag that I had purchased died in your care and without notification to me you cut a fresh one ( off a colony that was sick anyways) and shipped it. I sure wasnt going to pay $60 shipping to replace a $30 frag.

One other online frag outlet used a ploy on me a number of times back in the day.. it seems every order I received had one frag that somehow had just dissolved.. so to justify the shipping of a "free" replacement I would add a couple of hundred $ of new stuff.. and what ya know.. one would come as just an empty rock or frag disk... I have never had a zoa frag in my tank just dissolve to nothing in 6-12 hours..

I dont know what your using to grow corals.. but I have never had a fresh cut acro frag encrust in 5 days!

Could have sworn you posted following the frag not surviving shipping that you were selling the $30 credit for $10 less than it was worth ($20)....and then I recall increasing the value of the credit to $50 to help you sell it in a timely manner - perhaps I am incorrect. Somebody look that up!

Also "fragging of a off a colony that was sick anyways" - those are your words not mine. Does not sound like something I would do as I don't need the $30 that bad.

Depending on the SPS frag and where I place it (assuming the frag is cut flush) - yup 5-8 days depending on the coral (and this one does like to encrust). Keeping the magnessium high is my secret.

Well....I'm sure that for any potential business from me, you could somehow persuade your LFS to relinquiesh the CITES for me to veryify...otherwise how would I know? I am just basing my purchase on your honesty that the corals were imported legally.

Could I call DFO to visit your LFS so that they can verify the CITES authenticity before I make a purchase?

Could you kindly ask your LFS if this would be a possibility?

Thanks.

RAD, I believe your sole intent here is to cause trouble. Please refrain from this activity. The vendor is not responsible for showing you anything. It is an unreasonable request, no LFS would oblige to this type of request.

how much are you looking to spend?

Now there is the crux of the matter.
Thanks for adding to the confusion, mislabelling, mispricing and all the other BS that is cropping up.
Sheesh.

What reason would you have to doubt that WickedFrags corals weren't brought in legally? The site doesn't claim that the corals within it require anything more than a regular export CITES from the country of origin, which most fish stores never receive aside from the CITES sticker on the box. It is the wholesaler or facilitator that needs to ensure that the proper CITES is in place. Now if Wickedfrags were to bring in corals that obviously require a re-export CITES permit to bring them from another country, then the paperwork would be their responsibility. On a side note, anyone could send you a CITES that had a couple Acropora sp. & Montipora sp. listed on it and you wouldn't know if those were for the corals in the bags sent to you. It's a faulted system, which makes it easy to get by.

If Wickedfrags were to post that their sunset Montipora was of Tyree lineage, I'd be the first to ask them for the paperwork.

I've been hearing the "so what, it's a stupid rule anyways" a lot lately, and you know what. I agree completely! Yes it's insane to think that the government has a problem with reefers trading/selling aqua-cultured corals. But you have to start somewhere with the rules that protect the animals don't you? Just because it maybe aqua-cultured doesn't change the fact that it may have come out of the ocean illegally (I don't think that's the case with all the corals in question).

Do you do this with all the other stores you purchase items from that look exotic or may be labeled as something it is not? When your buddy/neighbor "John Doe" frags his nice new exotic coral for you, do you ask him for proof of cities import?

I don't see many stores that import their own corals, let alone someone who frags their personal stock for resale accomidating you with this information.

How would you verify the coral in question is the actual one listed on the cities provided?

**EDIT: I see this was touched upon while I was taking my sweet time posting.**

I don't understand your post - naming a frag and assigning a price to it is not new and is done by essentially all online websites.

I do not try and associate corals with specific ID sites or anything like that, because that can be even more confusing and/or misleading. More intersting than Zoa No. 1, Zoas No. 2...........

Cites
 

Exactly my point....why can't I ask one vendor for verification and not another?

I am not trying to cause trouble...actually what I'm trying to do is prove a point that this thread is useless.

Asking a LFS to provide documentation to prove thier legitimacy is assinine. LFS protect their suppliers and will not readily provide such documentation.

So if Dave can ask another competitor for documents to verify the legalities why can't I ask the same of Dave?

Thanks.

I've just seen the notes where Dave is asking the same thing, so fair enough.

You can't. That's is the major problem with the system the way it is. One one hand you'd like to say that once it's in the country it should be fair game to trade with anyone you like, but then what is going to keep illegal importers from bringing in small chop shop frags and saying they were originally imported before and they are just "distributing" them now?

Why don't you tell everyone your name and who you are representing???

You think you can hide anonymously behind a userID?

Paul:

If I was offering corals with the name ORA, I would certainly make sure that under the circumstances I had documents to prove their authenticity if asked.

Maybe they do, but in my limited capacity in this industry, I have yet to find a legal way to import these species.

From my discussions it sounds like they have found a legal way, and if I were them I would not give up the "secret" either.




Wendell

PS - I have discussed with Dave prior to this post that I would/could post in his thread. I am happy to see that this thread is not be "moderated away."

Dave, Ian, Paul. This is not going to be allowed to continue.

Dave, this is not the intent of vendor forums, and is not considered part of normal business activities.
I'm going to ask that this is closed and dropped. There will be no productive result from continuing this thread.

interesting

I guess it comes down to trust of your retailer. If Dave tells me he has something nice, I trust him and buy it. If any other retailer out there says they have something of Tyree/ORA/LE lineage... it is up to the customer to question the legality of such a claim and weigh the pros and cons. I don't see why a retailer would hide lineage information as that is part of what you're buying. Try and sell a Tyree Watermelon Chalice frag in the States and tell someone its Tyree and then tell them you don't have to prove the lineage to them when they ask for it, and that they should just trust you. See how that goes.

Everyone knows there are illegal corals floating around, and many people have them in their tanks. Unfortunately that doesn't make it legal.

No animals are being endangered by the cross border trading of frags with the USA, in fact the exact opposite is true! Sorry but this one has to go in my senseless rule folder.

It would be nice to see all corals in aquariums grown from frags, so we wouldn't have any trade in wild corals for CITIES to get involved with. There's plenty of nice corals in the hobby now, so that shouldn't be a problem.

I agree with you completely - the importation of corals is NOT the discussion, the discussion is about the importation of Steve Tyree corals and other corals from the USA.

Can we atleast allow "R.A.D." to formerly introduce himself, to add balance and value to the "read" before I/you close it...........the readers deserve to know. Dave