First of all, as this debate goes on, as they always do when someone asks about T5 vs MH the T5 people always jump on their high horse and say there are a million T5 dominated SPS tanks out there that are AMAZING. Well no shhhht. There are a million AMAZING skimmerless SPS tanks out there too. Just as there are a million AMAZING low-tech SPS tanks. There are many ways to light a tank, BUT there are ways that improve your chances and abilities to have an amazing SPS tank, just as there are ways to decrease maintenance.

:lol: I don't know if I should be offended or not?? Haha! No, I don't get offended very easily. You are assuming that the tank I have now is the biggest and bestest tank I ever did have, which isn't true. Well in some ways it is, but my biggest and bestest tanks I had back in the early and mid 90s, and I have very few pics.

I'm glad you found the pics of my 33 to your liking. :) You may be interested to know that tank was lit by 2x39w T5s for 2 1/2 years, and I have just recently (in last month) added a short burst of 2x250w DE MH to the tank. LPS aren't SPS though. I don't have any critters in there that require intense lighting. The clam is a Squamosa which is the least light demanding clam out there (that is easily found in the hobby), and the anemone is a Bubble Tip which is one of the least light demanding anemones out there. Both the Squamosa and the Bubble Tip are known to do well even under VHOs and CFs with enough wattage.

I have troubles with Valonia, but it came with the live rock, and persisted even when I was using a skimmer on this tank. I removed the skimmer about 8 months ago I think, and the tank has never been better. I take my time to make sure the powerheads keep detritus from settling, and I do run an AquaClear with some fitler media in it to catch the detritus which I change 2x a week. I also have a powerhead in there that I turn on everyday for only a couple minutes as it creates too much flow for the LPS, but cleans out the detritus from behind the rocks. I run about 1 1/2 cups of BRS HC GFO in a PhosBan reactor which I change out every 4-6 weeks. Skimmers aren't mandatory, but I would say that they are STRONGLY urged in a SPS tank which usually does best in a lower nutrient environment.

Not really...if you have a canopy over the tank, and the light is properly reflected down so you don't get much light spill then you aren't wasting the MH light, you're actually increasing it a little bit because you're taking the same amount of light and concentrating it a bit.

You can't disregard the reflectors, ballasts and bulbs though. That makes the comparison a moot point. If you chose the highest PAR T5 setup to the highest PAR MH setup, then you could have a decent comparison.

Sorry, I haven't saved any links. I've just read some here and there surfing the net.

Steve checkout LED Supply. Even with shipping, exchane and duties the Cee LED's would be 20 peice. Maybe closer to 14.

Steve,

I should get you out to measure the PAR of my 6 x 24W fixture. I'm sure the PAR isn't spectacular given that we know 80W T5s are the most powerful and efficient. If nothing else I should buy my own Quantum meter so I can post some values.

no problem, my schedual is a little hetic with me being Mr. Mom now, but I am off work at 3 every day and depending where you live I don't have to pick up kids till 4:45 in langford.

Shoot me a PM and we can figure something out, I even know where my Meter is as I didn't pack it :mrgreen:

Steve

hmm there actualy 39 each from that site.

you can get the dimmer ones for cheeper, about 12ish so you can take about 500 off my cost estimate of 2300. :mrgreen: still to darn rich for my blood. you could use the 9 buck ones which would take 650.00 off but then your only going to get less than T5 lighting levels :wink::mrgreen:

Hi Steve,

I have read alot about LEDs on nanoreef. I may get in on the current group buy which will get the prices down as low as possible. You should check out what Evill66 posts. He has tons of experience with LEDs and PAR levels and knows his stuff. LEDs are able to compete with MH and will bleach corals if you aren't careful. I think some of the older comparisons were made with products like the Solaris fixtures that used older Luxeon III LEDs etc. The newer Cree LEDs put out alot of light and alot more PAR.

Which LEDs are you looking at? If it's the MC-Es then yeah, they are a bit expensive and probably overkill. If you put tight optics on an MC-E you will probably bleach any corals directly under it unless they are deeper in your tank. Also, I don't think there are any royal blue MC-Es yet. XR-Es put out alot of light and PAR and can be had for USD $6.00 each on stars. In the group buy they will probably end up around $5.75 a piece and then optics are $1 each. Luxeon Rebels are really good too but optics are more limited. I am considering a 68 to 72 Cree XR-E LED array with 60 degree optics which should give me more than 150W MH performance. That is more than adequate for what I want to keep as I want to do a progression of higher to lower light corals from the top down. But nothing really demanding or requiring really high light.

I'm not really sure what LEDs you're looking at and what prices you are getting but those prices seem awfully high compared to what I have found at LED Supply, Cutter, ETG Tech etc. LEDs , optics and drivers/power supplies for my array would work out to about USD $650 to $700.

Assuming your tank is something like 30 by 12 inches you could probably get away with a 45 LED array (15 x 3) with 40 degree optics and you would have at least 250W MH performance. Cost of parts would be around USD $270 for LEDs, USD $45 for optics. The Meanwell drivers are a great option as they incorporate the power supply and driver in one and run off 110V. You could drive up to 13 LEDs on each one so you would need 4 of them. If you buy them yourself they would probably run around $50 to $60 each but in volume with the group buy at nanoreef they will likely come in at around USD $33 each. They are also dimmable with a few extra inexpensive components so you could run blues and whites off separate drivers and adjust your colour temperature and brightness.

Also, if the LEDs are already mounted on stars there is no need for plate soldering or anything like that. Simply mount them to the heatsink and wire the proper pads on the stars. As for heat, yes, you are right. they generate alot of heat upwards, not down into the tank. I picked up a large industrial heat sink at a salvage yard for $40 which will be more than adequate. If I bought the heatsink commercially I would probably be looking at $100 or so for that.

So the prices for DIY are not cheap but when you look at long term savings in electricity and bulbs it works out to be cheaper after a couple of years use.

Cheers,

Ron

I was looking at the MC-e stars for the white, then getting XR-E's for the blue and a few UV to throw in there. was going to use 60 to 80 degree optics on the MC-e's and 40 on the royal blues.

what was the heat sink you got from? I was thinjing of just getting a slab of aluminum and making my own but that is darn expensive.

Steve

"sigh". Nevermind

but Doug, you're really old now, and well, we gotta question your senility these days...:)

:faint:

So seeing as this thread talks about the immovable opinions of high horse riders, I'll modify my previous statements on the board.

Ok, you don't NEED MH, you can run a successful SPS tank, or any other tank, with T5s. I wouldn't, and it's not about color or growth. I've never used them other than for actinic supplementation, but for me, the value in MH is the point source lighting. This gives my tank a sparkle that is not possible with T5, at least not to a degree I'm happy with. I've been to real reefs, and want mine to look real, and for me, only MH can give me that. If you're happy with a flatter (less contrasty ?) look, then T5 will probably work just fine. I also don't need to tune my color, I want the color to look like a reef at noon, and mine does with 14k AC bulbs. I've never been to Fiji, so I'm not sure if Fiji really is purple, but boasting a lighting system based on Fiji purple or Tonga Tourquiose, to me, is not keeping a natural look. Again, not everyone is looking for the "look" I am, so use whatever you want.
Growth? Who cares? The coral is going to grow under any sufficiently bright light, and really, I've always tried to slow my growth, makes for more room on the picnic table.
As for coral color, there are so many factors beyond lighting, that most people ignore, it's not even worth discussing in a lighting thread. I don't care what kind of light you use, if these other items are not addressed, you're going to have brown coral. If these items are addressed, you're going to have colorful corals, regardless of whether you use T5 or MH. Sure, there appear to be some pigmentation differences between the two types, again falling to personal preference.

So sure, you don't NEED MH, but I do. It gives me what I want in a tank, regardless of any other concern (power, heat, cost, etc). The end point in this hobby is me coming home to look at my tank, with the look I want, and for me, this can only be done with MH. I need MH.

(oh, and Greg, you need MH too)

Nice....

I don't think any of the T5 advocates get on a "high horse" - we simply defend against unsubstantiated claims and general ignorance. You rarely see a T5 advocate claiming that T5 is better than MH. T5 users recognize that it is simply another type of light capable of producing good results. We also acknowledge that there are pros and cons to both MH and T5. And yet MH advocates make blanket ignorant statements over and over again based on use of a substandard (at best) T5 fixture (Tek).

I can't get over the ignorance about T5 lighting on this site though - there seems to be a relentless use of a Tek light as a gold standard for T5 lighting. This comparison simply speaks volumes about the ignorance about T5 lighting. Holding a Tek light up as a model for comparison in the T5 debate would be like using a Coralife pendant to compare MH to other lighting.

I'm pretty sure Brad was making fun with my comment about "high horse". T5 users don't claim T5s are better because they aren't, and they know that! That's like comparing a Ford to a Cadillac...the Ford will probably get you there, but the Cadillac will do it so much more comfortably. Oh, and a Coralife pendant would probably still out PAR a Tek provided they were compared fairly. :D




I agree with Brad...kind of. :lol:

T5s can definitely improve the look of all corals whether they are colorful or brown. BUT, that's just the look of the coral, not the color it actually has. Just like you can ue a 20000K MH bulb to "improve the color"...why do you think coral merchants use 20000K??? Because it instantly improves the look of coral no matter how nice or how brown it may be. I'm with Brad in that I like my tank to look fairly natural as well, although I do like a slight blue tint to improve the color of the corals, but not much blue. I think a blue tank (like 20000K) is like fluorescent pink lipstick on a 70 year old. It makes me cringe. :eek:

Oh ya, and shimmer. T5s get some shimmer, but nothing comparable to MH.

Ya, the horsie comment was just in jest, people need to relax a bit and enjoy a debate that will never end. In the end, use what you like, if it makes YOUR tank something YOU are happy with, screw all the other opinions. If I say you NEED something, who the heck am I to say anything about your needs? Zactly. What I like is what I like, if it's different than what you like, great, when I'm bored with my tank I'll come look at yours, cause it's different. Not better, not worse, just different.
I like shimmer, others like softer light, I like contrast colors, others prefer pastel. This is like arguing about what the best color to paint a living room is, and what type of roller is best. Really, if you like the color, and I really don't care how it got there, good for you. I like my colors and light, so good for me. Nobody NEEDS to be right here, there is good and bad in everything in life, not just lights.

Shimmer, I'm liking the shimmer I am getting from the 175. Only run it one night so far, but I think there may be a 4 tube, 24w TEK for sale soon.

I got a 14000K bulb from ebay. I know... But it was $19.99. Couldnt pass it up for testing. Couldnt see paying $80 for a bulb that I wasnt sure if I was going to keep. But, I do notice the difference. The lack of Actinics, I guess. Not quite blue enough for what I am used to. Might try to build a canopy for it, but the tnk is curved. I cant bend wood worth a crap LOL.

Steve,

From what I have read the MC-E is overkill for aquarium lighting unles you have an extra deep tank. The XR-E whites are more than up to the task and are a fraction of the cost. You will also get a better balance between white and blue if you stick to all XR-E emitters. You can probably get similar PAR using all XR-Es with 40 degree optics at lower cost. With 40 degree optics you will need to keep the LED spacing between 1.5" to 2" apart. Going to 60 degree you are only increasing the spacing to maybe 2" to 2.5" so you won't save much in number of LEDs but given the 4 to 5 fold greater cost you will save alot going to XR-Es instead of MC-Es.

One thing that people don't realize is that PAR is not directly dependent on lumen output in LEDs. LEDs emit their light in a fairly narrow spectrum compared to other lights so from my understanding they produce more PAR per lumen (a crude description). in other words, they may not look as bright as some MH but they are producing as much, if not more, PAR.

As for the heatsink, I have no idea what it came from. It is 5 inches wide and it was something like 15 feet long. I had them cut some off and I will run two strips side by side so it will end up being about 10 inches wide and I'll probably go around 40 inches in length.

Anyhow, this is all a bit off topic to the MH vs. T5 debate. We can keep it going if others are interested to or just PM me if you have some more questions etc.

Cheers,

Ron

You're correct Brad. Its to bad some others dont see it the same way.

Anyways, I edited mine for that reason. Tired of banging my head on a wall and then seeing posts that are just plain wrong and dont make any sense.

LOL!!!! Brad, That still gives me a chuckle, It never gets old :p


My two cents - I've used both MH and T5, I've read all the threads here and otherwise and everyone good experience and bad in both forms of lighting.

Why do I run T5's?

1.) Variation in colour, it's nice to fine tune the spectrum to find something that is pleasing to the eye
2.) Cost of the unit vs MH
3.) Cost savings in electricity
4.) Heat.. I won't burn myself on T5's like I did with MH


But this is just my own opinion.

I was planning on building a bigger tank but my current one is ****ing me off so much right now that I'm not even sure if I am going to keep doing this hobby..... but that being said if I do go with a larger tank I think I am going to run MH with a little T5 to tune the colour.... I like the way that T5's colour up my coral and fish... but I am just finding that I get very slow growth... then again is that just part and parcel of the lighting I am using or a combination of my other reef keeping practices? Tough to say really.

I think some users of each style of lighting sometimes come off as preachy. I thought long and hard about leaving the shimmer behind and after seeing enough T5 lit tanks my mind changed regarding it. I sit like 3" from the glass and peer in...watch my tank for hours each night without exaggeration. The shimmer starts to hurt my eyes after a while. Yes it looks more natural tho.

One thing I've noticed (in my empty tank) is that my fixture gets stove-top hot on its top. I'm pretty excited about all that heat that's not entering my tank directly. My experience with mh leads me to believe that T5 has the edge for heat but I did have an enclosed canopy before.

I also think with T5s that having a properly designed fixture/unit is a lot more important than with mh. And the TEK isn't that and everyone uses it as a comparison.

Brad I do like how you said you use what you like. It's my tank and I spend WAY too much time staring into it to use something I don't find ideal.

So what do the T5 users consider a good benchmark fixture? I was looking at Tek or Nova Extreme Pro 6 bulb fixtures.

Well, ya, that's what it's all about. Even if it's proven beyond any doubt that product X is better than MH, I like mine and I'm happy. I have the colors I want, the shimmer I like, my corals grow, my fish can see, everything is good. It also lights up my room pretty good, so all in all, I'm happy.

If I had to choose between those two I would go with the NEP and swap out the stock lamps immediately.

Based on testing to date I would say the benchmark for T5 fixtures would be the ATI Powermodule. There hasn't been enough testing or time to say how the Sfiligoi Stealth and Fauna Marin Star Fire compare with respect to PAR.

Ultimately, make sure any fixture you get has high quality individual reflectors, active cooling over the lamp cold spot, and a protective shield for the lamps (in that order of importance). Then note that the Tek doesn't have active cooling while the NEP does so go with it if that's what your only two options are. For a more affordable, higher quality option I would suggest the poor-man's Powermodule (the ATI Sunpower) if the maximum number of lamps you need is 6. If you want to be sure that you get the best then go with the Powermodule, Star Fire or Stealth (especially if you need more than 6 lamps).

Thanks but I think the ATI fixtures are out of my budget. I am looking for something decent at a relatively affordable price to do the job until I can build my LED array. The ATI fixtures are several hundred dollars more than the NEP or Tek.

For a quick fix I think the Tek would be the way to go overpower them with a IceCap660 Ballast.

My tank is 25 deep too (should be more than from the light to bottom of the tank) - And I am lighting it with T5's :fadein: Let see how's thing doing in there.
It was a big debate for me when choosing the light but I finally go for T5 after reading some articles about the MH related to over heat and chances of fire :sad:
I love MH though but have to stic with T5's for the sake of safety and summer's heat concern.

Then like I said above, go with the NEP over the Tek for sure.

Okay. Thanks.

I went from a Coralife PC to my NEP, I'm a newb but I can tell you myself, my corals and fish are all much happier.

There's even a fan quite mod available:

http://www.bderen.com/DIY/

I don't mind the fan noise as I don't find it annoying, but I may do it in the future if I've nothing better to do or a fan burns out.

I would like to go with a little more blue lighting when it comes time to change, and I certainly like the custom variations we can have.