Only question I'd consider is... Will there be enough interest/entries to warrant so many categories? If people are paying an entrance and only 1 or 2 people are in a certain category... How would that work?

As a side not Ill enter regardless, think it'll be fun and as a bonus: drive my wife nuts with another tank scheme ;)

Mentioned only as something to consider.

well I think I'd run a poll first to see if there is interest in each category but yeah, I think even if theres only a couple per category why not? :wink:

I'm probably down for the custom stuff on a budget. I need to get planning.

I like your suggestions Christy but agree it may be to many categories. Maybe cut it down to:

1. Stock tanks with a budget
2. Stock tanks with unlimited budget
3. Custom tanks with a budget
2. Custom tanks with unlimited budget

That may be a bit more manageable. Otherwise the other suggested rules etc. look good to me.

Well I'm not sure why you all feel this way, all I'm saying is I think 6 months is too long for build time and that you don't have to spend a lot on hardware or anything for that matter. Never did I say anything about $500 or my income which is actually pretty minimum which explains why I have to work two jobs, not that that's anyone's concern. I'm not sure why everyone is being so sensitive to a different opinion, I don't think a livestock budget works, that's it. Big deal, move on. It's also mostly based on exactly what happened with the last contest, almost every dispute was over livestock pricing. I already said other constraints are needed and gave examples.

shelphs,

What would you recommend as a budget then? Just hardware budget and an unlimited budget for livestock?

A dissenting opinion shouldn't be such a cause for alarm or outcry. I for one am pleased to hear to feedback and suggestions, regardless of what it is. If you want to participate or not because someone else, that is your choice, and your opinion.

Oh I like the idea to set a date where you can't add/remove stuff!! Good idea!!

I like the unlimited budget, at least for livestock because it reduces disputes, and because I want to see some stellar nanos with AAA corals in them in the end!!! :D I don't mind a hardware budget though...that's kinda fun to stick to a budget.

I also like Ron 99's suggestion of categories:

1. Stock tanks with a budget
2. Stock tanks with unlimited budget
3. Custom tanks with a budget
2. Custom tanks with unlimited budget

Of course I still think all categories should be limited to 20 gallon display which seems to be the general consenus on here anyway.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt (har har) as I'm not sure if I will have the space (in the house) to participate.

Yes a budget on hardware works, introduces a challenge and is easily monitored and controlled. If I thought a livestock budget would actually work I would be all for it, problem is there are too many variables and to me it just seems more fair and easier to simply eliminate it. The worst case is someone will spend a ridiculous amount of money on super rare livestock but the majority of people don't like or notice the rare stuff anyway so I see no advantage. You'll also see much more variety in livestock as much more freedom will be available.

My recommendations are:

• Hardware - limited budget
• Livestock - unlimited budget
• Total system volume - limited to 20 gallons or whatever most would prefer
• 1 month preparation build time
• 3-6 months additional contest time, again whatever most prefer
• People wanting extra build time can use addition contest time (no restriction on when tank has to be wet)
• Absolutely no changes within last month (proves sustainability)

We also didn't get too many people in the last contest so multiple categories, which although would be nice, probably won't really work. The more people actually competing against each other the better.

That makes lots of sense, and I'm all for that. Thank you for the recommendations.

Start dates? I'm thinking May 1st, or June 1st?

Lot's of good suggestions and discussion. After considering all the input I think the following would be good:

1. Two Categories; stock tanks and custom tanks
2. Hardware - limited budget of maybe $300 to $400
3. Livestock - unlimited budget (hey if somebody wants to blow $2000 on livestock more power to them. I think the contest should be based more on the whole package rather than what fancy corals or rare fish somebody has)
4. Display limited to 20 gallons with a max 20 gallon sump
5. Total of 6 months contest time with no set wet deadline (to give people as much time as they need for the build) and no changes in the last month (other than water changes of course).

As for start date maybe June 1st. I know my schedule is pretty full and life seems to be busy for many people so that gives a bit more time to plan for those wanting to do a custom build.

YMMV but I think the above maybe incorporates many of the opinions and suggestions made so far.

Any thoughts on monthly FTSs and updates? I think expecting people to post on certain day every month is a little far fetched since some of us aren't always around. Also with summer coming this becomes even more difficult. Some ideas:

• No actual picture requirements however people obviously realize this is a contest and to win they have to show something. Could also add a prize for best documentation/build thread.
• Monthly FTS required but not date specific, just sometime every month or even with in the first two weeks.
• FTS required whenever something is added or updated.

Just for clarification, is the 20 gal sump mentioned above
20 gal total volume or
20 gal water circulating through the sump

I won't be in this contest, but this is something I agree with. This caused a huge headache in the first contest, and should be considered.

I just wanted to throw an idea out there. Why not assign a points value to things like budget. You can spend however much you want. Just assign a point value to types of corals. Ideally the goal would be to have the lesser point value in the coral category, which will net the most points (if that makes ANY sense). So it doesnt matter what you paid for the coral or how big it is. Everyone will be competing based on points and not the actual corals. You can assign point values to all categories. creativity, complexity, volume, anything. You just have the judges awards points for those aspects. Give a percentage of point towoards a public vote at the end and the person with the most points in the end wins.

EDIT: Explain what i mean further.

Have categories be out of 10
Complexity you could have a max of 10 point
Budget a max of say 30 points (in this category species of coral will have their own value like sps 5 softied 2 lps 3) Tally the point out and give a score out of 30 so the tank with the lowest and nicest score has a higher mark out of 30 versus a tank full to the brim with all the most expensive corals having the lower score. People will then compete for a modest but REALLY nice tank)
Creativity out of say 30

Make the total allowable score out of one hundred. I think this would b a fair way of doing it.

I agree with this too.

Any insight on which option might be best?

rstar, I like the point system idea however it's still similar to money. Assigning points to livestock will probably be just as complicated as assigning a dollar value. I could see a similar system being used for deciding on an ultimate winner. Essentially have one contest category but at the end have multiple polls setup for voting on different aspects of each tank. Then award points to each contender based on how they place in each aspect. Kind of like Super Mario Cart :biggrin:
Reading your post again it seems we actually might be on the same page here?

Yes ecentially we are! However do think it could work for budget as well. As long as the points are very broad. Not down to each peice but each group of corals. SPS as a whole group would be worth say 5 point because its relatively easy to find really nice sps. softies could be worth 2 as its not quite as easy to find the really amazing softies. and lps would be inbetween. This would alow people to spend whatever they want but also keep themselves in check as to not rack up all their point. Itll keep people looking for the real gems to add to their tanks. I dont think it could work if you got species specific, it would have to stay broad.

Mario cart was just what i was thinking. I do think however most of the point would have to awarded via a set group of invited judges as if you leave most of the points awarding to the public you will NEVER get an unbiased vote. however you could hold a public vote and use a percentage as point. this would keep the contest fair and not just a "popularity" vote.

All three!

I would say one FTS a month, and it must be done within the first two weeks of the month. I would say make shots for additions as well. Then like you mentioned people who want to expand upon their build with additional photos can, and have that play into a best documentation/build thread award like you mentioned.

I like the point system
 

I while ago there was a thread on having a 20 gal contest that never ended up really going anywhere. But the "point" idea I think is a good one.

This allows for the guy that wants to spend silly but acutally has a nice tank to be compared to the guy who does nice DIY work on the cheap. As well, it removes the need to be so "a&^ retentive" about the budget, and not argue about the details.
I'm interesed in joining in, as I would love to build a 20gal just for the heck of it. And the "get more point for being cheaper" allows for me to post up MY cost out of pocket using my extra equipment, frags and scraps kicking around from my 220, and a guess at what all the materials would actually be worth to by.
IE, more fun and less mindless bickering.


PS. finally something to use my old prism skimmer for. :mrgreen: For some reason it just doesn't seem to cut it on my 220 gal

I'll bring up one more issue regarding the budget for discussion. When it comes to a hardware budget the problem is some of us are good at the whole DIY and can build a complete system for fairly cheap while others are not and some just don't want to. For instance if someone wanted to use a full nano package in a box, is that allowed? Or for a custom they may have to hire someone to build it which could also be quiet expensive. This could potentially be solved with 2 categories but again not sure on the amount of interest. Thoughts?

I think using a point system would allow for this, in the creativity and complexity categories of point awarding!

But will this work as an actual constraint or just for judging?

ok a couple questions, first.. Can there be an up to 28 gal display PPPpllllleeeeassseeee:mrgreen: I don't want to have to buy another tank and I have two 28's sitting in storage LOL

Also this one is a question about the budget. why do we have a hard ware budget and no livestock one, why not no hardware budget and only a live stock one. IMHO what people see is the tank and whats in it. To me it would make sense to have restrictions like , no more than 1 fish for every 5 gal, no more than 1lb of live rock for every 2 or 3 gal, ect.. give people limits in what they can work with and see what they come up with. with budgits there is always a work around. say I buy a broken pump for 5 bucks and it needs some electrical repair myself.. I just got a 200 buck pump for 5 bucks.. same goes for a skimmer, get a brokin one for cheep, fix it your self..... but if you tell me I can only have a skimmer, a single primary light with suplamental lighting, 15lbs of live rock, 3 fish, 6 corals, and 3 total pumps. It will make me do some serious thinking about what I want for my tank and how to do it. IMHO this is the best way to get creativity out of people.. give them stuff to work with and see how they put it togeather.

Personally if I did a 20 gal, it would be a SPS dominated tank and it would have MH/T5 lighting and a big skimmer. and either a kalk reactor or maybe even a dosing set up.

My thinking is I am not going to set up a tank just for the sake of setting one up. it is going to be done right, if that means I need to buy some stuff so be it but I am not going to cheap out and cut corners for the sake of a contest. we owe more than that to the eventual inhabitants we are going to have.

but entering this contest I am hoping that people are looking at it as a way to have fun with a build they already would have been doing and not just setting up a disposable tank for the sake of competing.

for the record, I can build my own skimmer, lights, reactor, ect.. got the acrylic tubing and the tools to do it, but.. even doing it your self there is no way you can buy the parts for under 300,

Steve

How about a category for those of us that are not only complete DIY idiots but think all those fancy, shmancy gadgets are not needed. Just a tank, a heater, some kind of light, a powerhead or 2 and an unlimited livestock budget. No drilling, no sump, no skimmer, you have a month (or 2) to put the livestock in and then you have to keep it all alive for 6 months... :mrgreen:

Isn't that what the last one was essentially?

After all the fighting and bickering it was hard to tell what the last one was :razz:

but no I mean no budget on anything just a simple box of water, the key is once livestock is added the contest essentially starts and it is about who can keep everything alive and with visible growth for the full 6 months

so what happens after the 6 months, you just flush everything. you make it sound like your going to do as basic as you can to make it challenging to keep things alive for 6 months, I hope that isn't what you meant at all as that would be a very irresponsible way to run it.

I do agree that they are overboard on equipment, I wouldn't even have a category for equipment at all and get away with the equipment side of the budget. this would allow people to create there opinion of what is the best environment for there livestock.

Steve

:lol: Well us DIY idiots gotta do what we gotta do ya know...but I wouldn't flush it, it would plug up the toilet. Maybe fertilize the garden... or I know I could feed it all to my dog... then I could show everyone the real meaning of "Barf" :lol:

no, no you mis understood, I wasn't saying that DIY is the way to go for this, I am saying that a budgit on hardware would give an unfair advantage for the guys that can DIY. that is why I suport having a live stock budget over a hardware. I would rather see people put some quality hardware on there tanks, than just rig some getto equipment up, this would increase the quality and longjevity of the system. In the same way I would also suport and unlimited sump size, I would rather see the extra water volume to create a more stable enviorment for the critters.

Lets face it if some one sets up a tiny tank they will get tired of the increased amount of maintenance after a while, daily dosing, or waterchanges, multiple evaporation top offs each day to keep salinity stable, ect.. more ware volume makes this a slower process, and a larger sump allows you to put equipment in the reduce work.

now if you wanted to buy a proflux you could do small and stable, but now your adding 8 or 900 to your hardware budget..

Steve

My interest isn't in doing a tank just for the contest only to take it down later. I don't have space for that :-) I am wanting to do a pico for my desk anyhow and would enter that in the contest but it is something I would do anyhow and would want to do right. Budget or not, it doesn't really matter as I don't want to get into ridiculous spending on it anyhow.

You don't necessarily need a Profilux for top offs etc. A simpler ATO can be had for alot less money and it is not hard to DIY an ATO for alot less than an off the shelf one.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Overall, I think a more open contest would produce a wider variety of results and be more interesting. Set major criteria like max volume, possibly budgets for hardware and/or livestock etc. and see what people come up with. Variety is the spice of life after all.

From some of the recent input another option could be total unlimited budget with a limited system volume. You get a total of six months, however the last three months are hands off, no livestock or hardware changes. The main challenge in the contest would be developing a sustainable system which is fair for both DIY'ers and purchasers. I think the total system volume would however have to be around 20 gallons or less though, once you start going bigger it gets too easy. The good thing about this is that some will think twice about expensive livestock as there's a bigger risk involved, removal of any livestock after the initial three months will result in immediate disqualification.

In the end you can't satisfy everyone, the person running this contest will have to step in with a final verdict.

wasn't talking about just top off, but for dosing all your nutrents also, a proflux with a 4 pump doser would give you a very constant and stable water chemistry.

Steve

unlimited is a little extream. much simpler to make a couple catagories.

25 gal system volume and under

26 to 50 gal system volume and under

and 51 to 75 gal system volume and under.

then for budget if you insist on having them for hardware come up with a $/gal figure for hardware and a $/gal figure for live stock.

say 20 to 30.00/gal hardware and 15.00/ gal for livestock.

so for the under 25 you would have a total budget of 500 to 750 for hardware and 375 for live stock

for the 26 to 50 you would have 1000 to 1500 for hardware and 750 for live stock

and for the 51 to 75 you would have 1500 to 2250 for hardware and 1125 for live stock.

now these are just example for the amounts. but this would actualy allow an overall "best in show" catagory where you could do just a tank shot and proportionaly the tanks will be even.

Steve

I can't see anyone anyone connecting a profilux and 4 pump dosing to a nano for a contest, that's well over a thousand dollar investment. You might be looking too far into this.

actualy under 800.00, and I would :mrgreen: Automation = less work = me happy and wife happy when I am away :razz:

seriously though If I had the money I would put a set up like that on a 5 gal Nano.. maybe not the proflux but the stand alone doser. expecialy on a tank at work where I won't be in on the weekends.

The intention when I mentioned this was for bigger tanks say 20 gal and up.

Steve

profilux basic starter kit is around $600 plus another $600 for a 4 pump kit, so I'm assuming you're talking about a stand alone dosing kit? Either way not something you would see on a nano contest tank, however I say if someone wants to spend that much on such a tank let them, it still doesn't matter IMO. But if it's that much of a common concern just ban controllers.

No offense to anyone and none intended, but isn't all the fun being slowly ripped out of the whole idea?

nope, you can get the beginner pack proflux, with a 4 pump doser, float levles, chemicles as a package for under 900

it would only be about 1K if you buy the parts seperate.

Quite the deal, where from?

I don't see much point for a discussion thread if you can't simply discuss. Just remember we're all friends here so if you find something offensive I'm sure it's not suppose to be :razz: