thats so sad... my cbb is my favorite fish and if he ever died id actually be depressed hes such a neat happy fish

Thanks. I kind of felt the same way about this one.

I had tried 4 over the past 6 years--all from stores and vowed never to buy one again from a store. I only tried this one since it was from a members tank and I think I really had it in my head that it would be a long term fish. Its so weird to have a fish that is happy and looks healthy and within hours, can't swim anymore and dies.

yeah man i can honestly say i feel for you i now how id feel if i lost my buddy alex

It is very unfortunate in this hobby that we deal with many failures, from discussing this with many retailers and aquarists the failure rate is likely as high as 97%, we do what we can and we learn from each other.

I too applaud GSP on his honesty and willingness to learn and share his experiences.

Well as I said earlier, I am not going to tell people not to buy these fish but I just hope other don't make my mistakes and go through 5 of them :(

What I did is not right and not fair to this species.

What I can say I have really learned from this (and has really sunk in finally) is that there are fish I would very much like to keep but just cannot. I need to do a better job of listening to people with more experience than me and do the right thing. I was told by an employee at a LFS after my third CBB not to bother trying again as he said hes been selling them for 10 years or more and a majority of the time the buyer comes back within a month to say it suddenly died. In his opinion, 100% of them were cyanide caught.

No more thinking or hoping I will 'get lucky' and one will survive. I knew it was a bad fish choice over and over again but tried anyways...pretty much once a year, twice within 3 months this time :(

There is no justifiable reason for me to make this hobby more selfish than it already is.

The employee at the LFS said these fish are probably caught with cyanide... that is a very serious allegation and I would imagine any reputable store would not buy fish knowing they are caught like this. You said your fish was fine in somebody else's tank until you got it. How do you know it is not something you have within your system?

I had the two angels that died within a week from each bought at the same store. I recall PMing you about the symptoms of cyanide and then after that did a heck of a lot of research and also brought fish bodies for examination... two stores even said it looked like cyanide. Since I seemed to have an answer to the cause of death, I went ahead and bought a young queen angel from a private seller. The fish had been in a tank for a few months and was healthy so I thought it was a safe choice. That fish was dead within ten days in my tank... same symptoms exactly as the others.

I then looked into things much further since this fish was from a totally different store then mine came from. Again I took the fih's body to be examined and got two answers that this could be cyanide or a bacterial disease... I was shown fish at the LFS suffering from the exact same thing as mine, and they were being treated for it...

I know cyanide is an answer we can accept since we do not have to take full responsibility for the deaths. However there can be other reasons aside of this and we should look into those options as well. I have no idea of how much these cyanide tests cost, but perhaps we should have a fund made on canreef to test a fish we suspect is caught like this. I know fish do get caught with it, but unless somebody can prove this is why fish just suddenly up and die, what's the point of talking about it.

So what does it cost and where does it get done? Who wants to put up some money for this, and GSP can get this fish tested since it seems to be cyanide poisoning. Who wants to step up and put a few bucks here and there to get this test done? How many members are here, and how many people care enough to set up a fund and donate to it?

At least perhaps we can see if this fish died form a cyanide or perhaps something else.

I can tell you almost EVERY 'reputable' store buys cyanide caught fish. There is not much of a way around it. Of course they know it happens but with absolutely no way to know how the fish they are ordering are caught, Im not sure what else they can do.

I think its a very serious allegation for you to insinuate I am using cyanide as a way to NOT take responsibility when I have posted about this in a very open and honest way. I don't appreciate that and that is EXACTLY the reason I was not going to post this and answers other questions above about why people don't want to post about things like this.

The Copperbands I have lost all died the same way and in in four completely different systems over 5 years. Actually if you count this tank as a new system after the transfer, its 5 different tanks. If there was a bacteria in all of them that happened to kill the fish...well I don't know what to say then.

Doing so much research would lead me to believe you have come across studies and facts that give you an idea of how real the cyanide problem is. I don't think testing of this or any other fish will prove anything new. It happens. Regardless of whether this fish died of cyanide or not, would it make a difference? If we found out that in fact it did not die of cyanide, would that mean we could ignore the fact that it happens and destroys reefs? Would it mean I should try another? What exactly would it prove?

I for one will not contribute a penny or minute of my time to any testing of fish. For one, not many places can do it and even less will care to bother. I doubt there is a lab that is going to be willing to test a 'pet' for no particular reason or want to get involved. If you perhaps are conducting a very controlled study to test for cyanide, maybe.

All the power to you if you want to continue to pursue this. I for one just don't see the point. It doesn't matter why these fish do not do well in captivity, it just matters that they do not. I don't need more reason than that to not buy them anymore and encourage people to do the same.

On the subject of cyanide fishing in general and what to do about it, there is already proof it happens, testing a few fish from Canreef isn't going to be some groundbreaking discovery that changes the hobby. What to do about it, I don't know. People are working on it and putting pressure on countries to deal with it. The Philippines are apparently starting to get tougher. Im not sure what your plans are but I can tell you that the best thing to do is avoid these fish and teach others the same. I will feel good about doing my part by not contributing to more CBB deaths or other species that are known to be cyanide caught...

Do what you may but please do not turn this into a guilt trip. I am not trying to justify anything here--far from it. I have admitted I have made some terrible mistakes and I was wrong. Very publicly. I have no intention of taking this fish to be blended up and tested in a lab (probably for thousands of $ if anyone will even do it) so that they can tell me it had traces of cyanide or not. Just doesn't matter.

^^Sorry I am just super frustrated with this whole thing :neutral:

If I am coming across as harsh then I apologize. Just the way I feel right now. I really didn't want this thread to get like this but of course there was the one poster who had to go there (not you).

I had hoped I could just tell the story and not have to worry about why this is happening (or turn this into a debate) and just accept the fact that it does and should not continue. I used to feel I needed to know the cause but with his one it sunk in--it doesn't matter! What will it change?

Sigh... I am not discounting your thoughts on cyanide, but you go into a store and tell them your fish died from cyanide poisoning. I was no way saying you are not taking responsibility in your fish's death. I know how it feels and it sucks.

At this point it should be "us" as hobbyists and consumers to get the testing done and take the tests back to the LFS... If the store cares they would look into their wholesalers and perhaps something get get done about this. If we just "think" it is cyanide, how are things supposed to ever change? We are just as much at fault for turning a blind eye to cyanide poisoning and continuing to buy fish we "suspect" get cyanide caught.

I in no way meant to be unsympathetic to you bringing this loss forward on the foums, but at this point what do we do?

If and when my CBB dies of what I suspect is cyanide poisoning, I will pay for the testing. I am sure someone on these forums must know of a place to send the fish to be tested. If you have something to prove this is the cause of death, then maybe things can change in the future.

If we sit there and do nothing as hobbyists, that are the bread and butter of this industry, then we are as much to blame as the people that poison the reefs and its inhabitants for our hobby.

I am so sorry for your losses as well as everyone else's... but what do we do from here? I do not judge people for their mistakes since I make mistakes myself. I do not take people's losses lightly at all. I have been there myself. I am sorry I offended you, but these fish continue to die and we do nothing about it. SO why can't a bunch of us hobbyists that care enough to get the testing done, pool the price of a CCB for each hobbyist and put it into a fund to get the ball rolling and make a difference?

Any one knowing of a place that can test fish that die of cyanide poisoning please chime in... Lets make something happen.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your fish.

I am just as guilty of at some point trying to keep a fish with a poor track record, but over the last year or so I chosen to stop buying any wild caught animal, I do have less selection to choose from, but I am fine with it. Might not work for everyone, but I feel a little better about staying in the hobby.

Your missing my point. Why does it matter why they die? They are not in my opinion suited to aquarium life. Most of us on here know that by now. Its not going to make a difference if its cyanide, bacteria, sadness from loosing their mate or whatever else people want to suggest.

What do you think you will accomplish by taking tests to a LFS? Really. Do you feel like being banned...if thats your goal, be my guest but I will be no part of that. The best way for us to deal with this is to NOT BUY THE FISH. I feel my story here has already done what I wanted because at least two or three people have stated they will now not ever buy them. This is what we as hobbyiest can do. Its not our responsibility to blame LFS who are not breaking any laws. They are not the problem. We are. We buy them. They supply what people want.

If you feel thats not enough, then go to the Philippines and help the people there who are actually trying to deal with this problem. But do not come here and tell me I am turning a blind eye. I am doing what I can do. I cannot do more than try to educate people and I do not need to test a fish to do so. Whether or not this one fish (or any of the 5 for that matter) died of cyanide is irrelevant. Its not an unknown problem that needs to be proven or brought to the surface.

I said right away that I had a feeling that I knew why they had died but that this thread would not go in that direction because that was not the point. The point to me was that they often do not last and I want people to be aware of this before they choose to buy them or not. This was not suppose to be about cyanide but someone had to bring it up as always. I then explained to someone else what cyanide poisoning was. I still had not tried to claim it was the cause here until I saw the thread going that way anyway.

You have completely missed the point and can't seem to accept the fact that we don't always need to know why. The more important thing here is that we just know they don't do well. Its not like if this fish died from a bacterial problem that changes anything. That isn't going to mean cyanide fishing isn't happening. They are two completely separate issues.

If you insinuate one more time that I am doing nothing or that I am as much to blame as the people who poison the reefs, I think I might just loose it. Im not even kidding...

If you want to pursue this absolutely ridiculous testing, be my guest but do not do it in this thread. I don't want to hear about it. It will prove nothing that is not already known. Perhaps you can purchase and blend up thousands of retail fishes from various stores, test them, get some real hard numbers together and figure out the percentage of fish that are cyanide caught. Then what? You will have a random number that proves what is already known--its happening. OR...you can go do some searches on RC and google or wherever and get the exact same result--its happening. But what will not change is that CBB do not do well in captivity.

Now this is how people can do something about it. Im not saying I can go this way myself but kudos to you ;)

Unfortunately its not rare and has spread to other countries now that were not known to use cyanide in the past :(

You are best off to get fish from Hawaii or Australia.

Anyways I hope this can get back on topic or I would prefer the mods close the thread.

Justin is right in saying if you want do something, dont buy the fish. If a fish doesnt sell well, then a LFS wont bring it in. Unfortunately thousands of people buy them anyway, so realistically its as justin says and there isnt too much you can do, unless you decide to campaign world wide against the collection of copperbands.

Im very sorry to hear about your loss :( Its difficult to lose any animal or certainly 'friend'.

I have to interject with this statement - Cyanide is actually an inhibitor that attaches almost permanently to trigger sites in biological structures. It can bond anywhere in the body of an organism, and in any amount, it simply depends on where it is carried. The cyanide that does not attach to any bonding sites will leave the body quickly, yes, but the cyanide that does not, simply sticks and stays. It can exist in any amount on any organ or body part - and can inhibit the correct function of that system - affecting the animal's function and lifespan accordingly. It can take a long time before you see any results due to the problem. Heart problems loom for months, maybe even years, before they jump out (see high blood pressure for example - high blood pressure is a problem, but you CAN live your whole life with it not affecting you much - or you can die from a heart attack triggered by high blood pressure). It essentially affects you after whatever amount of body imbalance has been inflicted by the cyanide.

Anyways - I doubt cyanide is the case in these situations. It would likely cause gradual deterioration over time as the fish were allowed to live so long seemingly unnafected, and yet pass so suddenly and dramatically. It sounds like another problem is the major player, and I doubt that cyanide problems like this would be so copperband specific.

Sorry, dont mean to spark any debates, just had to add a bit about the nature of cyanide.

Again, sorry to hear about your loss.

Chris

*The body (of any animal) is so perfectly balanced that I bet most animals affected by cyanide never make it to the hobby tanks, the retail stores even. Those that do get affected and make it to retail tanks, have such little exposure, and probably were not even the targets of the cyanide use anyways. Its sad because it is such a destructive and innefective method of capture... start captive breeding instead... it would probably end up cheaper.... and much higher yielding.

That's /really/ too bad to hear.

I hope by the time we have a bigger house and have room for a larger tank, there will be more captive bred species to choose from. I'm having a hard time with this idea, to the point that it makes me not want to deal with saltwater fish at all (stick with what I have, so to speak).

I can also see why this would spark such a huge debate.

I, for one, thank you for posting this info -- I've definitely learned alot from it, and probably wouldn't know any better for awhile longer.

Fine sit there and play the victim all you want...

You are the first to attack others for making mistakes or having poor judgement. Now you want a metal because you lost a fish and admitted to it. Was it not too long ago you had made a posyt about another copperband and said never again... Practice what you preach.

If anyone is going to lose it, that will be myself and many other that have held their tongues.

If the tests for cyanide are ridiculous then why did you ever make mention of them a long time ago. Are they ridiculous because they might prove otherwise? I know many people whom have kept these fish for a long time. They just keepo their mouths shut since they do not want the ridicule and to be called down for buying them in the first place.

I can tell you one thing for certain...

Stores will never stop stocking these fish, and people will never stop buying them...

Perhaps it is up to the hobbyists to find out exactly why they are dying so they can do something about it.Not much we can do about cyanide poisoning, but bacterial infections can and are treated. I think even stores don't really know if they have fish that have been cyanide caught, they tell me they would NEVER buy if they knew... so if my CBB dies, I will have her tested and if it is cyanide I will tell that store. At least I would be doing something proactive in this hobby to either get banned from the store, or damned well try to have changes made.

Fish do not just up and die for no reason... it is our responsibility as hobbyist to know why they just up and die "for no reason". Sitting there and trying a species repeatedly with no answer. You tried five, and have learned nothing more then from the very first one... Now you tell other not to try anymore.

Sorry but although you didn't want to hear about it, you are going to. You have never held back on anyone else when they didn't want to hear about it either.

Any one else that knows of a lab or knows people that work in a lab that can possibly test fish for cyanide or take necropsy please PM me. Its about time something proactive gets done about these types of deaths. Hobbyists need to know what is indeed happening. At least I would want to know. As much as GSP didn't want this thread to go this way, it had to go this way.

Although I am well aware about cyanide use, and after discovering it happened, I didn't even want to be in this hobby. I got beat up in the beginning due to my feelings about this very thing.

GSP I am sorry you did not want thing to go into the direction they now have went. However for you to say you tried five CBBs now (one just died two months ago on you), it is very highly hypocritical to tell others not to do so, just because they did not work for you. I have been to many reefers homes and these fish are alive and well for months to years in their tanks. Why you don't hear about them, is people with the bad luck coming forward and saying that they always die. The ones that have success with these fish just don't come forward in fear of being bashed for owning a red or yellow list fish...

have you tried contacting the UofC or SAIT for your testing?

...

This goes completely against all the studies I have read on the subject. Your going against some highly respected and reputable scientists on this one. Even some of the hobby biologist like Fenner have stated it does not stay in the system.

If this is based on humans reaction to cyanide, this has been brought up in the past and fish are not the same.

When did I say not to? I said I don't think people should and that hopefully poeple don't have to learn how I did. I never said not to buy them. I tried again (as I said but you apparently missed) that I only tried again because I found one from a members tank. You really need to slow down and read.

How am sitting and playing victim? I had the intention of sharing the experience to educate people. Im not telling anyone what to do. I do not attack people as you say. I have no idea where you get this from other than perhaps your threads but honestly you drive me nuts. Talk about feeling sorry for yourself...

I have tried five over five years and have learned something. You can't just get it through your head that we don't have to have a reason to know its not the best choice. Im not the only running into this problem. Your comments would only be fair it this were just happening to me and my tank. Its not. Its a problem regardless of the cause.

Im sorry you take such issue with the way I have dealt with it and you shoudl hope I don't ever truly express my feelings about how you run your tank. :neutral:

Mods can you please close this--the intention here has fallen very short for a few individuals and is getting way too off topic. This was never to be a cyanide discussion.

Looking into to it now... probably will take a few days since I am not too sure where to start at this point.