Give me a break. I haven't missed any point. Your just a little extreme, thus the comparison to PETA. I suggest you find a new hobby if you feel this way.

I have had many conflicting thoughts about the hobby over the years and I agree that it can get very hypocritical but if you feel like no one should be doing it, then start yourself and give up your tank.

And no not everyone is hypocritical because not everyone feels the way you do.

I myself, just couldn't carry on doing something that I felt so strong against. I also would never come to an aquarium board and start saying no one should be keeping the animals they keep.

I think the idea of this list is GREAT. If its done right. There just can't be the extremes or it becomes ridiculous. As stated a bunch of times, it needs to be worded right. A list like this will never be more than a learning tool for people to make a choice. In the end, its not going to stop everyone from buying from the "red" list but hopefully it will make people think twice. Like I said earlier too, I think its important to give people other options along with the difficult to keep fish. Its more likely they won't buy the hard to keep fish if they see that there is something else they like that is similar but has a better survival rate. Just saying no to people doesn't work.

I think you guys are getting a little worked up here, and totally missing the point of this thread. This is supposed to be a learning tool to help newbies (and more seasoned alike) make informed decisions about the fish they choose to put in their aquariums. The more people who can be informed, the better the chances are that some of these fish will not be imported as often as they are. It's a learning tool, not a be all end all. :)

Exactly. :)

Yes the intention of the list is such a great idea and I hope it gets done...I am more than willing to help out of theres anything I could do.

All that gets to me is when you start to hear the extremes like we shouldn't be keeping any fish. These comments don't help anything. This is a REEF site! PETA has a site if people feel that way.

Your help would be greatly appreciated. :) I just gotta figure out a way to deal with all the information and present it in an easy to read way. I don't want there to be too much info otherwise I think people will not bother to read it, ya know? Maybe provide minimal details on the main page with links to more information or something to that effect.

It is definitely a bit pointless to be going to the extreme of saying we shouldn't have reef tanks, which does have a certain amount of truth to it, but we shouldn't be eating animals either. In the end, we all have tanks, and most of us eat meat, so it's a bit of a moot point. The idea though is to create as little impact on the natural environment as possible by making informed decisions, and spreading the word. :)

Just wondering if Chin Lee's fish lifespan polls can accompany this list in any way? The polls are becomming more informative as they age and more people provide input and experiences.

I was thinking along those lines...or even having threads dedicated to each fish on the lists where people can share their good and not so good experiences, but that might end up creating a bunch of new threads that the mods won't be impressed with!! :lol:

Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go. Then inside a thread for each species which somehow is organized into the color categories such as Red (Extremely difficult, Best left in the ocean), Orange (Difficult, Not recommended) , Yellow (Proceed with caution, experienced keepers), Green (Good survival rate) and then maybe even Purple (Best fish choices for new to the hobby). Might be too much but you get the point. If there was a quick reference list as a sticky at the top of this section with the fish names, species names and color key, that would help direct people quickly.

As for the first post in each individual fish thread...as you said not too much but at least reasons either to keep or not keep the fish along with some data in much the same fashion Fishbase has. Then after that people are free to discuss/debate the fish and share experiences.

Might be too much work though plus I doubt mods are going to want to get that far in depth.

Great idea GSP.
Hope the mods go for it.
If experienced reefers using expert authors opinions are willing to share their experience in species they are familiar with in formulating the list, posters can be referred to the list.
Newbies can be directed to the list to avoid unnecessary fish deaths

I don't mean to confuse the issue (aww who am I kidding yes I do :razz: ) but how do you go about keeping things straight within the colour groupings ie: damsels, great fish, tough as nails, can go in small tanks but still not recommended as a good fish for newbies to get because of the fish's desire to rule the world... or mandarins, they're a hardy, tough as nails fish to keep, providing you can keep it fed. If your tank is big enough and has had enough time to grow a thriving pod population, the mandarin pretty much can look after itself. Nobody bothers them, they can take a wide variety of water parameters and they are disease resistant

We have a local website in my town and I have been working on putting a list of different species of fish and a basic description of it with a photo. I did not think of a green, red, or yellow kind of thing. I stole the idea from liveaquaria. Here is an example. It's alot of work but I'm learning in the process as well.
http://northernbcreefsociety.com/msg...hp?topic=368.0

in all honesty i think most fish shouldn't even be kept in anything under 100gal...

but you guys are talking about fish that need special requirements. Think about all those fish out there that are housed in small tanks (like yellow tangs in 30 gals). Personally i think anything that isn't recognized as a nano fish should be on that list cause most people'd tanks are under 50gal.

Just say NO to drugs :Banane40: :lol:

I have to agree. Especially since I MIGHT (not 100% for sure yet) be getting an Achilles Tang soon. FYI if I do get one it will be going into the fowlr tank so it will be the only tang in the tank.

I really like your idea, I think that it could work fairly well. The mods are a really good group of people on here, I'm sure they wouldn't have to many issues with it as long as it was done in a proper and respectful way.

Easy, Im not sure where the confusion is...you answered your own questions really. A fish like mandarins are NOT a great fish to be encouraging people to keep as they do not have a very high survival rate. They would be an example of a fish that is in a category for more experienced reefers with an established tank. Its just a way to educate people. Hopefully if they see that Mandarins are on a "tough" to keep list, they will think about if their system is suitable.

And damsels, I don't think they would even come up but if they did, came thing, caution would be warned as they can be nasty.

I think your looking at it very one dimensional. Mandarins are not tough as nails unless eating and quite often not eating...so they are not close to an easy fish. They are also cyanide caught a majority of the time. Another reason they should not be encouraged.

Ya I think the mods would go for it as long as say Myka is willing to organize it all and get things going :)

Oh and the Achilles Tang is most likely a species I will try one day. I will wait until I have a bigger tank than a 200G because I feel they need more room than an average tang but I would try one day. Thats kind of the point of this. Not to tell people absolutely no but try to make sure if they do feel the need/desire to get a fish like an Achilles, they realize how tough they can be to keep and hopefully provide it with a good home.

Go Myka :cheer2:

I will not buy an achilles unless it is from a reliable source (which I have and is getting some possibly Fri.) and I will not buy one that isn't eating, however my source is reliable and works hard to insure the fish are healthy and eating before selling them, so we'll see what happens.

I have had 5 mandarins, 1 female went carpet surfing in the 2nd yr, 1 lived for 4 1/2 years after being bought as an adult and the 3 I have now I've had for at least a year and a half. It has to be more then coincidence that I managed to find 5 mandarins not cyanide caught when they haven't even come from the same source


They have lived through failed heaters (temp down to 68), extreme abuse from an aggressive clown, high ammonia (quarantine tank) , high salinity...ect.. The one thing I have always made sure of is enough live rock to ensure a high pod population until they start eating mysis. 4 out of the 5 eat/ate frozen mysis, the only one that I haven't actually seen eat mysis is the female I have now but her body is thick and obviously not starving.

The point I was making is if a mandarin has a thriving live food source that can sustain itself when first introduced they can survive serious abuse without ill effects. I would never recommend them to newbies simply because a new tank can't possibly support their need for live food but they are by no means difficult


These are but 2 examples I guess what i'm saying is...what makes a fish difficult, any fish no matter what species can die from cyanide does that make them all difficult? If you see an angel that is known for not eating, eating in the store is it still too difficult to keep? Clarkii clowns are as viscious as any damsel. I'm just wondering what line is drawn for a fish to make the red list

... and history just keeps on repeating itself. Most people would rather complain and object to a list rather than actively read one and understand its purpose.

Anyways, based on my 5 years of limited experience I'd nominate the banded snake eel, elegance corals, goniopora sp, linkia starfish, and the strawberry blue coral (thats what it was called... I still have no idea of what it actually was) to be added to the red list. Dwarf Lionfish are also quite difficult to wean onto frozen food so maybe the yellow list for them.

:mrgreen:

and another qoute from another thread

and another

After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?
In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Your post's have a "smile to your face but snicker behind your back" feel to them. I am sorry but I haven't seen anything constructive in your posts. Just judgement. I think an apology to all the members you have talked down to and belittled in all your glory of knowing all would be appropriate. Maybe you should make a "Mykas guide to do as I preach, not as I do". I hope people can go back and see your prior posts to see how much of a hypocrite you are!

If you wanna save the world this certainly isnt the way to do it. If anyone is unsure of what they can and cant do I am sure they can research it and will find most topics are 6 of one half a dozen of another. Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

Hmmm...... is this what you call deja vu? These "lists" do cause alot of debates. Everyone has such different opinions in this hobby but this topic seems to turn out to be one of the nastiest. I like the extra butter on my popcorn :wink:

Wow....... :popcorn:

red list
 

3MTA3
I think you may be my new Hero!

Live from western Canada.....and for the millions reading around the world..... lllllllets get ready to rumbllllllllllllllllllllllllle!:boxing:

Whoever has the remote, please hit the pause button. I need to pee first!

3MTA3 said everything better then I could of
To make up a list one should only go by their own experiences everything else is hearsay. We have no idea how other people look after their livestock and its always easier to blame a demise on someone else (even so called experts mess up at the fishes expense once in a while).
From my own experience foxfaces should head the yellow list, I went through 3 of them before I could get one that lived in my system and yet everyone has one. To me mandarins are easy and achilles tangs have special needs but aren't impossible

What a bunch of BS from someone who has 6 posts. Who are you?

My vote would be for having fish police come to our homes, check out what you got
and decide if we should or should not get something!

:lol::lol::lol:

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

:behindsofa:It's not about how many posts a person has. Who cares who this person is. It's obviously someone who has been around for a while and has setup a new membership just to do some venting and knock someone down a peg or two. It's great that Myka trys to help people but you have to practise what you preach. Myka has created a "guide to this and that" Thats cool and all but to put your name in front of it and call it yours, comes across that you think of yourself as a bit of a guru. Even though she might be very knowledgeable. Rather than putting up a red/green/yellow list it's best to put up a fish library with all the info about that certain species. It's alot of work but could help out alot in the end. This is pretty entertaining but lets not get toooo personal, would'nt want to push someone in to having to use meds.

For once I agree with naesco. It's nice that you have an opinion 3MTA3, and I'm very sure some members will agree with you, and some will not. But I'm going to guess you're a member under another name here to be so familiar with post/thread history, so why hide behind a new forum name?

I am sorry just trying to lighten the air a little. But I just wonder if it really will help. Do
we not read any books. I bought books when I first started this and in all of them they
give ratings tank size basic do's and don'ts. Maybe we should encourage people to read
more. In so many things it is common sense. Yes we have gotton some crapo advice from LFS but I always try and research before I try. Is this not the point we should be trying to get across. Oh and just being pleasant to one another might be a nice idea!
Maybe we should do a book club pass along good ones. I have also bought many books
on fish so I can always check what I might try.

I have plenty of books but the contradict each other for info on the fish and so does any research I have done online. Then of course if you go to an LFS, the info is still different then what you really know. Some stores have had no problems with certain fish and others will not bring them in because they are hard to keep... It is tough to know what is right and wrong since there is so much info to be had, and even on the forums, people have different opinions altogether. It makes it tough for us newbies to know what to do.

Even when I ask I get heated comments and then I get private messages saying not to worry, just do this or that and I will be fine. It makes it very frustrating to do the right thing. I have been able to keep mandarins without issue, a copperband butterfly with not a single problem and cleaner wrasses are fine as well. Since I now know they are not an easy fish to keep, I would never advise anyone to get one. I don't want my luck or good fortune in keeping these fish to reflect upon someone that may not be so lucky in the end. I never give advise since I feel I do not know enough to be helpful...

Regardless of skill level there are some species that are not meant for an aqaurium. The panther grouper being a good choice, it is endangered and grows to 2 feet+

Having a list of these fish is a good idea, whether you choose to follow the list is your choice.

If you do ignore such a red list you will go to Fish hell and thousands of guppies of swordfish will torment you forevermore.

Naesco...Let me start by saying I have read your posts as well....we have enough people in this world telling us what we can and cant do that we dont need a Tang police force on a friendly and informative website.
Its all about how you go about "informing" someone. You dont tell them "OMG YOU CANT HAVE THAT IN YOUR TANK!!!!!!!!!
Most of us even from childhood rebel against such discrimination and authority and will do the exact opposite of what you are saying just to p**s you off when they post it!

As for your mothering words that we should thank or applaud Myka for her efforts??!!!! Are you hearing the same voices or are you related to her? Have you not read the drivel and condesending words she has posted to others ....come to think of it you have just posted the same type of comment towards Marie...wow.
Make a list have and fun doing it...it is great as a reference but JUST that..a reference. What you or I write is not the bible of reefkeeping and certainly not someone who doesnt practice what she preaches. This wasnt meant to attack Myka and make her feel guilty...just to open her eyes and the eyes of others as to how to respond appropriately to someone with questions and treat all members/vendors the same and accordingly.

This one just made me laugh :lol: . However you are right...as I said above it is how you go about it. Gold star for you Mr. Madreefer.

Dear Nazerine
I felt responding to you I would be a little more direct and personal. I will have to say your "guessing" is way off the mark. A little known fact is a person can peruse these boards and read all they want without EVER becoming a member. I think you would be surprised of the amount of people who read these forums but are not members nor have they ever posted.
I appreciate you trying to slueth out or direct that I am just another member but it was not until the latest posts of said person did I finally feel a need to "get involved" and become a member. One can only hold their tongue so long and in this case it was the needle that broke the camels back my friend.


I am not trying to hurt someones feelings or start fights...just simply trying to make sure people are treated properly as personally I think people who read these boards without becoming a member will NOT become a member as they choose not to be barraged by nay sayers and know-it-alls when they are asking simple things. Too many boards have these people and it only harms the forum not the person as less people register to become a part of the society. Not one person can say they know it all and what works for one may not work for another.
Remember this is a hobby....the happier we are the more apt we are to continue. I am sure you would not want to be part of a forum being made to feel stupid or dumb for the questions you ask.

I hope everyone can take from this what I had intended and use it in the future to treat people with the same respect you yourself would want.We all in the end will do what we like but having a fun and informative site is what we all need. Good Day

Bruce S

Yeah I have a panther it was small, cheap, and beautiful (always a bad combination) I bought it on a whim and the LFS said no worries its a great fish! It is a great fish but....

I think the point of this list is just people with experience making recommendations. These are recommendations so take it or leave it this isn't changing the worlds fish laws!

I have seen lately a lot of really nasty comment to other members who have 2 tangs in a 50 or some one who bought a mandarin in a new tank and so on. It surprises me that people are so hard on new hobbyists. We all make and have made mistakes and we come here to learn and share our success and failures so others can learn as well.

Just my two cents I'm no expert at anything but I do like pretending!:mrgreen:

This is exactly why I said, this kind of thing can't get too extreme. It will only work as a guide that encourages and educates people or it will not work at all.

The idea (to me anyways) was to have a color coded list that let people know there may be some risks or difficulty involved with a species of fish they want to keep and what to look out for and do to give the fish a good chance at survival. This is why I though that suggesting an alternative was very important if your going to try to encourage someone not to buy a certain fish. The powder brown that keeps coming up is a great example--don't tell people not to buy the, just encourage them to get the right species (which is much prettier anyways :) )

I still believe this can work but as I said earlier, I also don't believe there are too many fish that can't be kept in home aquariums (of the commonly available species) if people are educated and have the right set up. Hopefully the "list" would just stop some impulse buys and people who were on the fence about a certain species.

I think it was all meant to be good but maybe started out a little extreme. Wording is everything if you want to people to listen, especially if you are trying to encourage them to NOT do something they want to do.

Perhaps if you had seen this fish red listed you would not have purchased it. A red list is just another tool that helps an informed aquarist make a good choice to his stock.

I always try to help where I can, based on my own experience. I've made a lot of bad decisions in this hobby but have learned from all of them.

We were all new to the hobby at one point. I started coming here shortly after I started in the hobby. I started by lurking well before I ever signed up.

There are a lot of good people here that have a lot of great experience and are always ready to help wherever they can.

I think there has been a lot of nasty vibes going around in the past little while. I hate to say but it seems like a lot of the lon timers have just seem to have become annoyed with certain people.

That being said, I really don't think that is is about the questions people ask, it's that despite the best will of what I would call the "core" membership of canreef, advice is ignored or pushed aside and bad results come about.


It's not about just saying that a tang should not be kept in a 50 gallon.. perhaps not but is a 90 or a 300 really much better? These animals are being taken out of the big blue sea and kept in glass boxes.. these are always a poor substitute for the ocean. Can we make our pets lives a little better by providing them with a bigger "cage" sure?

Am I guilty of some of the negativity? perhaps... I always like to help people where I can.. anyone on these boards who knows me or has at least met me in person I would hope find me to be a nice kind helpful person.

Have I made bad choices with my tank? YES i sure have! Despite reading many times about how hard mandarins are to keep I have tried them on two different occasions.. both times the fish dies within a week of captivity.. sadly enough I think I mourn the loss of the $$$ rather than life of the fish and I know that is wrong... we are playing god here keeping these creatures and I should know better.

Am I doing things wrong right now? You bet I am! I have three tangs in my 90.. are they healthy? Yes Are the happy? As far as I can tell.. should I do it? I don't know if it is right but I do and I have success with it.

Anyhow.. just my two cents (well maybe three cents) I just hope that I am respected as a fellow reef keer on the same journey as you all.



**** forgive any spelling mistakes I may have made :p *****

exactly!

Chin Lee spends a great deal of time and energy maintaining the 'Fish Life Span' Polls
Christy Spent months creating a fish reference library
and none of it gets utilized to there potential. You say But we have already spent exhaustive amounts of time gathering educational reference material so all canreef members can make informed purchases.

In my opinion (not the Mods of Canreef) a red list is rediculous. There will always be success stores and sad failure stories with advanced fish, corals, or inverts. So to say No you shouldn't keep X in an aquarium will never get collective agreement