Thank-you for sharing. I welcome the advice. I knew the dealership was going to cost more but I trusted the dealership to do it right, which I think/hope they did. As for the work they did it was listed in the manual as needing to be done and that's why I got the work done. My boyfriend does the regular oil changes so I didn't have them do that, but everything else that was listed (Minor tune up and spark plugs, Transfer case, Transmission service and PCV valve) I had them do. On the plus side they didn't try to tell me that this that and the other thing needed to be done as well, and they didn't do anything I didn't want done.

FYI This is the details on the transfer case that they gave me:
Transfer case svc. tech(s):3811 $371.54

Complaint: Check transfer case fluid; advise if service is required
Use sythetic oil if required; advise if full 4x4 service required
Do not perform before advising please (which they did)

Cause: Dirty driveline fluids

Correction: Performed 4x4 service, used synthetic fluids

Description
Sealer 01-081-003 $6.94
75W140 01-081-020 $110.37
Lube 01-081-090 $31.14
Multipurp 01-081-02 Internal

Total labor and parts $519.99

Any ideas as to what it all means? Thanks for the advice I appreciate it. I thought maybe they replaced the transfer case, and I was under the impression that whatever they did it needed to be done at 50,000km.

And this is the response from balistidae:
It looks to me like they changed out ALL driveline fluids (Front diff, tcase and rear diff). And judging by the sealer charge it most likely means the rear diff had to be split to be serviced which is where the labor charge would have come from.
Although it was a pricey service I doubt they were ripping you off. All of those items are set menu pricing generally and full synthetic fluids are quite expensive.

As for how much you get paid an hour, I'm just jealous! I'd love to make $90/hr :biggrin:

Mind if I ask what kind and year jeep this is? I have NEVER seen a transfer case that isn't just a drain and fill with plugs. I too own my own automotive repair shop, and even at the $110/hr that we charge, there is NO WAY that ANY transfer case service takes more than 3 hours. I would guess 1/2 hour or less MAX. It is my opinion to the best of my knowledge that you got ROYALLY screwed on the transfer case service. As for the coolant and spark plugs, I agree that 50k is too early for those as well.

That's cause they already hosed you on everything else....

What does surprise me is they didn't get you for the $50 hit on the cabin air filter.

I think lesson here is next time do what you can handle yourself and shop around for quotes on the rest.

Being a lic. tech, this is so true.

Hummmm, I guess I should of called you :sad: It's a 2004 jeep liberty.

I pretty much keep my Dakota in 4x4 too. Otherwise, its scarry. Even with great snow tires. 2WD on dry pavement tho. Love the shift on the fly... BUt ya A TON of great advice and help here. Next time, just ask, and we will all help you do your own services. Just promise to wash hands thourally before going into the tank :D Its all really easy, and we'll show you how.

A car dealership is no better or worse then anybody else in the retail world. I have friends and family in many retail stores and you would be sick if you saw the mark up in clothes or electronics.

Remember that is the door rate; the tech does not make anywhere close to that. Neither do I.
I still think the transfercase service is a bit high. If they did the differentials and transfer case service which on a Liberty would include removal of skid plates if equipped the labour is still too high imo.

Definately agree!!!

I have two cars in the shop right now - 01 Focus Wagon with a broken timing belt ( I don't think I'm going to fix it ) and my back up, my 92 F-150 with a problem somewhere between the ignition and the starter. ( That pops up the second I need to drive it, the thing hasn't moved in three months and now it breaks! ) I'm cringing waiting to see what the bills are going to be.

Another thing that just hit me is that a lot of times that these shops will take women for granted, and add a few things on too. I have seen that first hand too. It happened to my wife with her car, when we were first dating. She took her car into a shop to get serviced and the guys said i will do this and that. So I knew that some of the stuff wasn’t done. Like the coolant, windshield washer fluid, JUST adding water and charging her for a bottle, stupid stuff like that, knowing that she would never look under the hood. Man Father always taught me to spray paint the oil plug to test other shops so i did that too. and guess what they didn’t even change the oil after saying that they did..

So after that they charged her over 300 dollars, she paid it came home crying and told me that the car wasn’t even touched on some things, she checked the oil and it was black not somewhat clear. The water in windshield container was all water. So needless to sya i went up there for a drive. and i went to talk to the manager. then showed him the receipt and ask if he could put the car up on the hoist, so i can show him the oil that has not been changed, he laughed ,then i told him that Ok i will prove that your guys are ripping people off and will see you in court.
The manager says i will humour you then put it up on the hoist.
any ways guess what happened next. The manager said oh we spray paint our plugs to ensure that they don’t come off.

YA whatever, I told him and then said I will see you in court and told him that is ok i have pictures of it all see you in court. needless to say the shop was closed from other complaints and the manager was fined and had to pay for my court time and we got our money back...

That is why I don’t trust people when they work on my car or the wife's car. I watch...

Ok, Ok, I agree with one but not the other, we are grease monkeys plain and simple, I think we actually need less skill to be a good Mechanic than we did 30 years ago, but we do need more expensive equipment which tells us what is wrong.

as for what dealerships charge and anyone who uses book value, you are going to get ripped off in >85% of the cases. A good example of this is when my truck got ripped off I got it back in less than good shape, I had two injectors gone (diesel truck) and I was on a course so I didn't have time to do them myself so I sent it to ford. Well they charged 1400.00 for two re manufactured injectors (who said they don't make money off parts) and 1000.00 for labor. well a week later I had another injector go, so instead of playing chase the injectors I decided to replace them all. I bought 8 injectors out of the US for 1300.00 for remans (less than the price of two from ford) and it took me a grand total of 3 hours start to finish to do the removal and installation, hmm ford is charging over 300/hour now?

I have a friend who has a shop here in town, just him as he can't find a deicent mechanic to hire. he charges 60 bucks an hour and doesn't charge if he is not actually working on the car, where dealers will charge even if they can't fix the problem. this is the biggest complaint I have as I took my old truck in about 3 years ago, it would shut off when you try start it intermittently. they charged me 2 hours labor because every 15 min they sent a guy out to start it and see what it did and they couldn't get it to do it. More than a little upset I took it home, looked on the Internet for 5 min and found the problem and fixed it in 10 min (cleaning the IAC) you would think a dealership or a mechanic would be able to figure out a very common problem in that year of vehicle.

I usually work on a lot older stuff myself, but I look forward to new stuff as with all the computers and stuff it is so much simpler to find out what is wrong, and only have a few extra wires to unplug to get at anything. Heck with the computer programs out there now you can do anything at home a shop can do, if you have the tools to do it and like getting scraped knuckles and such :mrgreen:

Steve

Quote:

Another thing that just hit me is that a lot of times that these shops will take women for granted, and add a few things on too. I have seen that first hand too. It happened to my wife with her car, when we were first dating. She took her car into a shop to get serviced and the guys said i will do this and that. So I knew that some of the stuff wasn’t done. Like the coolant, windshield washer fluid, JUST adding water and charging her for a bottle, stupid stuff like that, knowing that she would never look under the hood. Man Father always taught me to spray paint the oil plug to test other shops so i did that too. and guess what they didn’t even change the oil after saying that they did.. So after that they charged her over 300 dollars, she paid it came home crying and told me that the car wasn’t even touched on some things, she checked the oil and it was black not somewhat clear. The water in windshield container was all water. So needless to sya i went up there for a drive. and i went to talk to the manager. then showed him the receipt and ask if he could put the car up on the hoist, so i can show him the oil that has not been changed, he laughed ,then i told him that Ok i will prove that your guys are ripping people off and will see you in court. The manager says i will humour you then put it up on the hoist. any ways guess what happened next. The manager said oh we spray paint our plugs to ensure that they don’t come off. YA whatever, I told him and then said I will see you in court and told him that is ok i have pictures of it all see you in court. needless to say the shop was closed from other complaints and the manager was fined and had to pay for my court time and we got our money back... That is why I don’t trust people when they work on my car or the wife's car. I watch...

Sounds like you have had a bad experience, however 60% of my customers are female, a trend that is more common in the industry today.
If we put a part in, we always keep it for the customer. The majority of people look at it and say yup, throw it away, but I always give them the option if they want their old parts. I will be the first to admit that there are some real lousy shops out there and fortunately most dont last long. I think that is the case with most professions, lousy plumbers, lawyers, dr's, etc, etc. but to condemn a whole industry due to a poor experience is not right. I have a great lawyer that works for me, I love my doctor, and have some great professionals that work for me when I need them. I also have a great crew at work, that included weeding out some questionable staff from the early years. Any business has a growing period and as this is a human industry there are errors, how any individual or corporation deals with their errors is what defines them as good or bad. Just look at whats happening with banks, automotive companies{the big three] in particular. as well as with the economy. I have a motto at my shop..." If you like what we do, tell your friends, if you don't like what we do, Tell Me!" I have always believed in providing people with the same service that I expect to get. You gave a manager a chance to correct a mistake and he blew it. Not all people would. The unfortunate truth in most industries is that most people dont' complain..they just don't come back. I have not advertised in 3 years and my shop is always busy, I stress...always busy. I get all my customers from word of mouth and usually have a strong family connection..if the parents come in, the kids come in and so on. I hope you find a good shop and regain some faith in some industries...

Grease Monkey's?? My guys can get dirty, but they still wear gloves and use a seat cover and floor mat..sure you are bound to get oil and grease on us from time to time but that is like saying all a doctor does is stick his hands in blood all day. as for the less skill part, try tracing a ground fault in an electrical system, or finding a voltage drop in a circuit in any vehicle. If you think that your code reader is going to show you the problem you are sadly mistaken. Diagnostic labour can be the most trouble when working on any vehicle, sure sometimes it is easier, but how many back-yarders have a $10,000 scan tool with gas analyzer, let alone the hoists and other specialized tools that you need to do some jobs. Nevermind the fact that before I bought my shop I had over $50,000 in hand tools that I puchased and due to stupid government regulations I cant write virtually any of it off. Again it boiled down to the skills of the individual. You may have a good mechanic that charges you $60 per hour. Better hope his insurance is good, see what happens if he makes a mistake and I will bet he does sometimes, are you covered?? As for cleaning the IAC did he address what caused it to become contaminated, did he suggest a decarbonization or an injector flush? Did he service the air box and clean the tubing to your throttle body? I am not going to get into a finger pointing match with any other techs, but sometimes you get what you pay for. There are some real quality shops, and dealerships out there and they have the right to be paid for their services. There are some not so great shops and dealerships out there as well, and yes, I would like to see them close up their doors. But your statement about having to know less nowadays is misinformed.

Good point, I guess a lot of it goes towards parts and everyones salary. BTW I don't have skid plates.

Just a word of caution from one of your other posts... running your vehicle in full 4x4 when on dry pavement or even wet pavement with decent grip as well as driving in 4x4 at speeds over about 80km/hr will damage the system.

Big agreement there...:biggrin:

When there is no snow on the road I take it out of 4x4 but as long as there is snow on the road it stays in 4x4. Crashed on a bridge (which was pretty scary, luckily no one was hurt, just the front bumper was damaged) a few years ago from icy conditions which might not of happened if it had been in 4x4. I don't do much highway driving so it's not very often I drive over 80km.

That's not entirely true with Jeep 4-wheel systems. NV231 (Command Trac) only has 4-hi part time, which is no good for pavement (2004 Liberty most likely has). There is the NV242 (Select Trac) which has part time, and full-time 4-hi .. Full-time 4-HI was designed for pavement 4x4 all-time.

Personally I think the labour charge seems high, but if they were draining your t-case and noticed excessive metal flakes (could be from high 4x4 usage). They decided to crack it open, along with both front and rear diffs to check for mechanical issues. Just speculation, but I know personally jeep 4-wheel systems can be troublesome :) (PS: I love my jeep quadratrac system in the snow! )

The NV244 works fine in my Dakota, 100KPH on the highway:D I do take it out when bare roads. But if theres compact/ice in sections, it wont bind the drivetrain.

Thats a dodge, not a JEEP :rofl:

LOL, Ya I forgot. COMPLETELY different....:wink:

Grease monkey is just a carry over name your reading to much into that. My friend is not my mechanic I do all my own and I know what owners have to buy and I think it is hi way robbery, my shop at work, yes even in the military, had to buy about 30K in tools and such just so I could do warranty work on Volvo Penta stuff, which I am a authorized mechanic (grease monkey :mrgreen: ) for.

It was myself that fixed my truck, I do my own stuff, and yes I did know what caused to to gum up, bad design, it was common in early truck 4.6 motors, and the easy fix would bypass some of the pollution junk so I just cleaned it when it needed it. I did do the decarbarization, I had an injector service. I did these every year asnormal maintance, I am kinda anal when it comes to my cars.

I am also a heavy duty diesel mechanic, and qualified by solar Saturn to work on there gas turbines. I have spent the last 19 years on courses and practical learning for these and several other mechanical systems. I am also as you put it a backyard mechanic for normal cars, although I like to think I have a leg up on most because of my training. I know the companies make you buy the big 10K reader, I have played with the snap-on one and it is neat even tells you the most common faults that cause the problem. I hate how they have you over their barrel for buying what they say when you can buy software and adapters for a laptop that will do the same thing for 1/10 of the cost. I know nowdays with the readers and newer sensors they tell you if you have a gound fault and let you know where to look, yes there is a learning curve to get good at electronics, but between the readers (good ones) and knowing how to do drop voltage tests and a little understanding of the computer workings it is actualy more simple than working on a old carburated motor that has a no start. alot of the repairs used to be trial and error and hours of trouble shooting, where nowdays you do a scan and where you have to look is narrowed down for you. Heck the Vodia tool for Volvo Penta will tell me which sensor is giving me the problem, weather it is a true reading or false, weather the power to the sensor is shorted or if the signal wire is shorted.


I have several friends who are mechanics, and several of my family are also, I am not knocking the mechanic, but rather the system. the big shops make it very hard for a self employed guy to get a good business going so they have to have lower prices, and I know what happens when he puts a part in that was defective, he eats it and replaces it so he can keep the customers.

anyways aside from that, I have all the respect in the world for honest shops, but they don't seam to be the norm lately.

oh if you want a challenge I got one for you, no one can figure it out, not me, not ford, not and of the other shops I have talked to as it is a real weird one. how familiar are you with 1996 3L Vulcan V6 in the Taurus?:mrgreen:

Steve

Taurus, Ya throw it away LOL

whats the question on the v6 taurus?

ok to me it sounds like a couple problems mixed together

it drives fine, actually really nice for a car with almost 300K on it. We bought it in 99 with 99K on it, and have not had to put any money into it aside from regular preventive maintenance untill recently where we had to change the oil pan as it went pourous, and a few years back I had to change the timing sensor as the berring on it went and we changed the A frame mounts. Spark plugs, wires, oil sender are all new, it had a fuel injection service about 8 months ago, and is not throwing any codes at all, not even the ford codes that a normal code reader can't read.

what happens is every once and a while it starts knocking under load, and blows blue smoke like crazy. then it stops a runs like a new motor. I replaced the PCV and the grommet and it stopped doing this for a couple weeks then it started again.

I have checked the timing sender and put it on the scope to verify the timing is ok. when I am doing live reading while driving the timing drops off while it is knocking, but the timing sender check out fine when I test it. The knocking doesn't sound like the old timing is out rattle but rather a hard knock. and it is using a lot of oil laity.

We are getting the wife a new car in the near future but I want this one to hold out a little longer as I don't know how long it will take to finnish the will and get the money to get the wife a new VW TDI.

Steve

yup were going to, and get a 09 VW TDI. I was hoping this one would last untill this summer when we move to Kamloops or till we get the new car (which ever comes first) which it will but I want it to run better than it is untill then.

Steve

Have you determined if it is bottom end knock or top end? Bottom end might be the early indication of a rod starting to let go. You say that the timing does drop out when it is knocking which is normal as the knock sensor would cause it to drop. It might also be a valve issue as well. As big of a pain as it is, its time to pull the heads and inspect..I would really like to hear it first...

Sorry dont mean to hijack a thread here....

No worries, hijack away, I find the info interesting and useful.

Hi,
I work for a Import Car Dealership in Victoria. In our shop we have one apprentice at a time and one lube tech, the rest are factory trained mechanics. Are door rate is close to $100.00 an hour. Sometimes when you go to a generic service centre you will have a cheap labour person working on your car, and the magority of the time they will not have the proper diognotics and will use cheap aftermarket parts. We had a lady in a while back wanting her car fixed. When we told her what it would cost she called us every bad name in the book and she took her car elsewhere. A few days later she was back, because the service centre she took it to put the wrong parts in her car and caused major damage to her engine. They would not take responsiblity for the damage. So in this case it cost her alot more.
You should be able to take your car to any licenced service facility to perform general maintence with out affecting you warranty as long as you keep the records. Just my two cents:smile:

Ya, I thought it was the knock sensor so I wasn't to worried about that thought I would mention it though.
If I had to guess, I would say lower end, as it is slower than engine speed, I thought of a rod but it doesn't make sense, as it is not consistant enough. If it was a rod going under load then it would do it pretty much every time you loaded it up, not only once in a blue moon, oh and if you floor it when it is knocking it goes away (forgot to mention that) I have been avoiding the pulling the heads part :mrgreen: as I am thinking that way myself, but it is a lot for a car we are getting rid of and isn't worth anything :mrgreen:.

Steve

which one you work at Nats?

Steve

Oh wow lol so much hate on a dealership. Personally i am an apprentice at mazda and trust me when i say this, depending on the car depends on what needs to be done.

But I am suprised about the transfercase. With only 50,000km's it should be under warrenty. But this is where a dealership can get you. If you do not have major services (in other works, the fancy oil changes that cost you $500) the dealership will void your warrenty. With some of the things I have seen in the trade I don't trust anyone with my personal car except 3 of my tech friends who help me out. Just seeing how much every thing costs is insane. But i have had my manager void a few warrenty's because of people actually not servicing their cars at all. for instance i had a cx-7 that never had its oil changed in 1 1/2 years. you can imagine how that was.

If you have had all your services done, i would go talk to the service manager cause that transfercase should be covered under your driveline warrenty.

Every job should have a paid rate. so what ever job those were thats how much they cost in labour. for all you know a job that pays out 3 hours could be done in 45min.

Soo, It's OK to charge 3 hrs for a job that takes 45 min because Some BOOK says thats the price??? Thats Freakin BS right there. one of the reasons I hate Stealerships.

I don't think its ok at times but thats how flat rate works. All depends on how good you are at the job. Like for me i can replace a auto transmission in 8 hours (and thats being slow) when another apprentice takes 2 days. Trust me would you rather take the chance and pay hourly and either get someone who is fast or someone who is slow or pay the fixed rate.

Also depending on the job sometimes diagnose is in the fixed rate

I think the OP got ripped off

My warranty isn't void and I have had all my regular maintenance (oil changes etc.) done and up to date. My 5 year warranty (whatever that covers) isn't up until July 2009. I asked the dealership if the transfer case was covered under my warranty and they said no. However the dealership I brought my jeep to is the one close to where I live, it's not the dealership I bought my jeep from.

I agree with the idea of fixed rates for services. It would of been nice to know that this costs this much to fix and that's it. Not this costs this much plus however long it takes to do it.

True about pink coolant since it is more acidic compared to green coolant. Pink coolant is usually extended life coolant and in my opinion a pain in the ass.

I see this stuff come in most new heavy truck engines and it is pricey when you need to replace it. I will give the customer the option to change over to regular coolant when replacement is required.

One other quick thought about the "noise" is a harmonic balancer starting to fail..common on some "fords" More so on sc t-birds though. Still think its in a rod or bearing ..Sounds like a good summer project..:biggrin:

The guide works in 2 ways..the labour rate can be in your favour too. If an apprentice is working on your vehicle{we all start as apprentices} It may take him 5-6 hours to do a 3-4 hour job but you arent going to pay 5-6 hours labour. I have been in this business 35 years now and have seen a lot of good stuff and a lot of crap. It took a number of years before I considered myself to be a "Good Mechanic" and I have still made mistakes. Sure there are some jobs that I can do faster than the labour guide but I will also point out that you do pay for experience too. You can have 2 identical vehicles for the same type of work, one goes without any problems, the other one you might break a head-bolt or have a housing crack, so 2 similar jobs can take way different times. Does anybody complain when the young doctor takes 4-6 hours to do what the older experienced doctor does in 2-3 hours..Bill is the same, How about dentists..same idea. There is a severe shortage of automotive technicians right now, a lot of young people when they look at a profession see automotive as a very expensive career to get into. Why start a career that is going to cost you $5000.00-$15,000 just to get started when you can go into several other trades for much less. It is a common mindset for a lot of people starting out. Over the years I have seen the numbers drop severely. I figure I will only be doing this for another 5-10 years and with the aging population it will get much harder to find good skilled tradespeople. What do you think it will be like in 10 years when you have to book an appointment for a basic service 3-4 weeks in advance, as there arent enough techs to handle the load..The fast lube places will eventually be a thing of the past as they will have to evolve into something else as technology changes. an example is that vehicle specific oils are coming out..in a way they are already here. Try using any other transmission fluid in a newer Honda other than "Honda" fluid..Nothing but problems.VW is similar..The manufacturers arent stupid people.. They would like nothing better than see every independent shop other than dealerships disappear.That is why getting the technological data is always a few years behind for independants. That is why there is a "right to work" bill in front of the government right now. Most owners wont take their new vehicle to an independent shop untill it is off warranty..for any repair. Most owners think that if they get their oil changed or their brakes done at another shop it voids their warranty..It does not, so long as it is done at a shop with licenced mechanics. Are there cheap aftermarket parts out there??Sure there are, but there are some aftermarket parts that blow the doors off dealer parts as well. I work on R.C.M.P. vehicles as well as the Justice Institute and the Department of Fisheries, so I dont skimp on cheap parts. But I will use good parts and not all of them come from the dealers. Here is a question for all of you..As you all know anybody can walk into a Canadian Tire, Napa, Lordco etc and buy parts for their car..but who installs it? Is it someone who knows what they are doing or a back-yarder who thinks they do? Sure there are a lot of simple repairs that can be handled by a lot of people but what about the safety items, Brakes, Front end, Suspension etc. So Mr Smith tells Mr Jones that "he can save him a few buck and do his brakes at his place" Mr Jones says sure and lets him work on his car, now after Mr Jones picks up his car he drives away ands a few miles down the road his brakes fail and he crashes his car.maybe somebody gets hurt, maybe not, but this does happen on a regular basis. I have had vehicles towed to me because their "buddy" worked on it and something broke or fell off beause it wasn't torqued properly, or brakes failed as the rotors were too thin. There is no law that says you cant sell auto parts to idiots that don't have the brains to check their tire pressure let alone do their brakes or ball joints because they read a book or saw some pictures on how to do it. The majority of back-yarders are very ignorant of what it really takes to do a job properly, this includes torque spec's to bolt tightening sequences. How many people torque their spark plugs in?? Or torque their wheels on when they rotate them?? I am not trying to insult anybody its just that sometimes a little knowlege is dangerous. I may know where my tooth hurts but I am not going to let my "buddy" take a stab at fixing it unless he is a good dentist.
And for anybody who wants to say "fixing a tooth is way different than fixing a car" It isn't if you are trained to do that job. Ask your dentist if filling a cavity is a hard job for him to do, if he is honest he will tell you its not a difficult procedure. Whatever career you are trained for there are jobs that are easy for you to do but difficult if not impossible for someone in another line of work to do. So whats the bottom line?? Take your vehicle to someone you are comfortable with, ask around, if you arent happy, tell the service manager or owner and give them a chance to make it right. Mistakes will happen and as I said before it is how they are dealt with that makes any shop, dealership or otherwise good or bad.
"Happy New Year!"

This is a Dodge thing. All the "Dodge" work trucks at my last work place would have the service engine light come on at 60,000km. Then you would get the $800+ bill for sheduled service (fluids change) from the dealer. Eventually we decided to get all the trucks serviced elsewhere for less then half the price. The work is still covered under warranty requirements. Toyota Rocks... so far:lol:.