Never said you weren't entitled to you opinion. I'm just saying that based on what I've seen of your opinions I don't think this hobby is for you.

Doesn't mean you have to agree, or that you have to leave the hobby, it just means that in my mind a lot of your comments don't exactly mesh with the hobby.

I just don't understand how you enjoy the hobby with all these internal conflicts/struggles you seem to be having.

Fish die... but you seem to take it hard, or you did with Eddy, but it's going to happen again. Are you going to get a memorial tattoo for every time??

Your taking fish that are from the huge ocean and shoving them in a little glass box for your own personal enjoyment... the hobby is one that sources from selfishness I guess everyone has different lines for how selfish we can be but it seems like your trying to play both sides.

"I don't think large fish should be caught there should be laws but... I have a big puffer in my tank that's "so special" in part because of his size ... but I saved him from the tiny store tank"

"Take him back"... "What? Never... why so some else can buy him? I wont make them suffer by making such a ridiculous purchase."

Your encouraging a market that you supposedly don't like by keeping a big fish... take it back and let the guy sit on it if it's so unethical... if someone else buys it at least your conscience can be clear.

Oh wait... now he's not that big for your tank now... well neither are some of these other fish your trying to make laws about when they're in other peoples tanks.

But right now all I hear is you complaining about a problem that your currently contributing to. Your enormous posts simplified are you battling between your selfishness and your guilt. Find your line quickly or pretty soon vendors wont be selling you the fish you want b/c ur bashing them afterward... even though you'd do it all over.

Good thing I'm not a lfs owner cause I'd reserve the right to refuse you business, but $20 says you'll be back to a lfs before the months end.

Not necessarily, it sounds like he was explaining why the bigger fish cost more, it's still very likely he didn't order it that big. I would bet he sold the fish for close to "cost" since he paid so much for shipping. Why purposely bring in large fish when you make more money selling smaller fish and they are easier to move?

I agree with Wes and I stand by my previous statement that we hobbyists are to blame.

If you're against bringing in large fish or certain species of fish, despite what you might think, buying them doesn't help the situation. You're only supporting the exact cause you're against.

In order to make a difference you should not purchase the fish you're against bringing in. That way the retailer is more likely to sit on the fish and yes it might die but the retailer will loose money and might take further efforts to avoid bringing in the same fish. By purchasing the fish you may think you're helping but you're not, the retailer now thinks that the fish sold and he could sell another. Simple supply and demand, the theory of any business.

I know mistakes are made and that cannot be helped. I don't frown upon that at all. I also don't blame Danny for my fish. He has a whole store to run, and I cannot bear my puffer's liking of sushi on him. I just wish I knew there was a chance. At least I know he is eating...:lol:

I am really happy about the new puffer I hate the holidays but now I have something to look forward to. At least I have some time off to watch my tank and get some work done around this house.

We all learn from our mistakes and grow from them. I didn't pick my puffer due to his size, but his health and movement. I love a good arguement so keep it coming. I am not on any high horse, but now know what I know. My puffer is not special due to his size, he is special because he is an awesome fish. I did take Ed very hard since he is the reason I went to bigger and better. I wanted that fish to have a big tank and room to swim. When I moved into this house I almost killed him half a dozen times due to my lack of knowledge. It is a shame I finally am here with this tank which was for him, and he died three days short of making it into it. I have a memorial tattoo for my Rottweilers, but have not even considered a fish. Maybe I will get a reef done on my back some day, thanks for an awesome idea. I appreciate it. It would be spectacular to say the least.:mrgreen:

We live in a throw away society and always just "get another one". Perhaps if we think about why things happen and don't just get something to replace another we would be in a much better place with this world. Yes I am selfish for being in this hobby, yes I want a reef in this house. However I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible. I am not perfect by all means but I want to always better myself by lessons I have learned.

Of course I will be back to a LFS, just not that one. I unknowingly bought a fish that was larger because he was caught as an older fish. I did not even consider it until I saw him hunting like a wild animal hunts. My bad, not the puffer's. Whats done is done... It happened for a reason, and I learned a big lesson for it. I won't bring him back to the store now since I picked him and will deal with it. Just because I am a retard does not mean the fish should suffer any more stress by being brought back to the store. He is not a piece of clothing, he is a living creature. You can just bet that I won't do it again. Any large mature fish will be a captive raised fish that outgrew his owner's tank. You can bet on it. My next puffer is exactly that, so I learned and did something with my new knowledge on my mistake.

I won't be buying any more clownfish, at least not these little false percs. That would be even more selfish on my behalf in the end. I am rehoming them soon. My refugium will be set up tonight and I will go snorkling to catch them and keep them safe until homes will be found. If I get another clownfish you can bet I will be asking what kind I should look into and if they will be safe against my hungry piglet.

I do think you fail to understand my point and that is alright by me. It is sometimes hard to convey a message when expression cannot be seen and written word is only there to speak on one's behalf. I am a decent person that is not staring down at anybody, I just don't know better in many aspects of this hobby. As a consumer I have the option to shop where I want to shop. If one place does not work for me, I will go to another. At the end of the day it is me whom has to live with myself. I do take the deaths of my fish seriously because it is my responsibility to keep the safe and healthy. When they die of old age it is one thing, but when they die due to the lack of my knowledge it is my fault.

I knew I would open up a can of worms when I started these two different topics, but debating and education in the debate is the best knowledge anyone can glean in life. At least I know I should not feel so badly about certain issues and if I did not bring these topics forward I would be beating myself over it. At least I can relax and enjoy my hobby but still have lines drawn for my own personal ethics on what I think is right. Does not mean everyone needs to do what I do, but at least I feel I made a difference in my world.

I'm confused what you learned that it's wrong? For lfs to bring in big fish?... you bought one so there is obviously a market of which you are a part?

And it's too late this time but you'll know for next time? But in the mean time everyday you will look into a tank at something that you're against. I just don't understand how you learned this valuable lesson and yet you continue to be a part of it everyday until the fish dies. And if that is going to be a short span you should give him to someone with a bigger tank or put him out of his misery b/c like you say below "I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible"

And if he lives a long time why not get another one?? Oh right... quality of life. You would never want another one to have the bad life you're about to give this one???


Maybe not solely on size but in part.


This is not a good argument because good arguments are founded on something solid. Your argument is dynamic and changes and in doing so it's irrational, and illogical.

Yeah sounds really nice :neutral:

Strange that you say this b/c from what I can tell you spent more time crying over Ed and giving a sob story than actually trying to get some insight as to why your 55 crashed... so get that one figured out yet?


I guess you need to define ethical?? Is it ethical to give animals a lower quality of life for your own personal enjoyment?? I'm pretty sure a tank isn't the best environment for a lot of fish that we keep, so how is it ethical to sacrifice their quality of life for your enjoyment? It's not ethical it's selfish but I'm ok with that because my quality of life is more important to me then there's but again you can't play both sides. "Agreed I'm selfish... but I won't mistreat animals" Technically you are... oh right... "I wontif possible." Unless you'd like to redefine mistreatment?

Sure you wont... ps your husband going for you is basically the same. No I don't wanna go out for pizza I'm feeling fat, but can you bring me back some


I make ignorant and dumb purchases as well, because I liked something and wanted it now, but I don't come home and say how there should be laws to stop me from being stupid

Oh ok... you're right you we're ignorant so it's ok... np. To bad we live in "such a throw out society" but lets let people use ignorance as an excuse. But then your mad because there is a market for the exact kind of ignorance you displayed.

But now your eyes are opened and you'll never do it again and you want to change the terrible things in the hobby... NO BIG FISH! NO BIG FISH! oh him he's a puffer... cool hey! He's miserable but I decided to keep him anyway. And if he's happy then why you hating on the lfs?? And saying there should be laws against big fish?


I think I do understand... that it's irrational


You can shop where ever you want... I just hope you don't find a reason to bash all the lfs and wonder how you'll stay in the hobby when you blame them for your bad choices and vow never to go back after one bad experience

Do you cry when you eat salmon?? Or is it ok for taste enjoyment and just not visual enjoyment? You're shortening the life of every fish you own and your ok with that? So you don't take the deaths that seriously... and I'm only making this point b/c again it seems like you try to play both sides of the fence and show how you care sooo much about your fish, but not enough to not support the hobby.

I know we can care about the fish we have but at the end of the day if we over emphasis how much we care and how serious the fishes deaths are than we shouldn't have them. At the end of the day we don't take a fishes death that seriously b/c we'll still sacrifice it for food, or for pleasure.

Please don't tell me that the food part is a need.


I guess I'm just trying to help you draw those lines because right now yours looks like this:

http://missjaneleo.files.wordpress.c...2/scribble.jpg

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright. I see you love a good argument, but I do not have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.

I could go on and on, but just don't have the ambition to do so anymore. It was fun and I am sure we will do it again in the future. I wish I knew how to make a cute little picture too, but sadly, I don't have the skills.

You way of thinking will seal the fate of this hobby some day when we are not allowed to buy any captive fish at all, since there will none to buy. I would not have bought my big puffer if he was not available for me to buy. You missed my points entirely, but I can't blame you for that.:wink:

Have a b=nice day.

I'm a little lost to what your argument was, could you maybe help me out cause I'm a little confused.
One minute you're saying one thing the next something completely different and contradicting.

So basically are you happy with your purchase? Did you think it was the right thing to do?

Are you still mad at the LFS? If so why?

Do you believe bringing in larger fish is wrong? How so?

Where do you draw your ethical line? Seriously I'm really curious, everyone has a different opinion but I'm having difficulty reading yours.

You inadvertently did give that advice. At least someone (I know I took it that way) could mistake your comment for being advice on feeding a puffer. I just think you could have been more clear and actually have included some details...like it was a treat maybe.

All I did was make sure people understood how horrible of a diet that would be. The you cleared it up but started an argument instead of leaving it at that. Sure taking fish form the ocean is worse than feeding them a bad diet by why would you even go there...you knew that was not my point. I have no problem with fish coming from the ocean or I would not be in this hobby.

I think you do an amazing job with your tanks and people respect your opinions. That makes it even more important that you are clear. I did get a PM right after that BTW asking how to feed goldfish to puffers and another asking if it was ok to do.

I agree to a point with this posters views on keeping large fish but I have to agree, I couldn't do it myself if I felt quite so strongly about it.

My opinion is that there are species that should not ever be in LFS unless someone orders them specially. I also think every other species should be brought in as small as possible and safe. There is generally an ideal size for most species. For example I would say porcs should only be brought in 5" and under. Or...Naso Tangs, again under 5" or so. There is a huge difference between a fish that has be "raised" in a tank and one that has grown in the ocean. The younger the fish, the better they adapt generally.

I do not blame LFS for this alone by any means. I said earlier about that large tang that if it sits there and no one buys it, I bet the owner will not bring them in again. I think I said it would be ashame for it to die but it would also save many others...in theory anyways. It all stems form the collectors and lack of collection laws.

My father lives in Singapore and dives almost weekly throughout South Asia. I go a few times a year to join him and the **** you see go on down there would probably make most of you feel terrible about how you fish get here. The large fish are the worst to see.

Anyways, I do kind of agree that the original poster has a lot to sort out about how they feel about captive fish. This is not the hobby for you if you don't feel most fish are doing well in aquariums. Its a selfish hobby and you have to be ok with that. But I also think some people are being a little harsh with there crazy drawings and all out attack. Im not saying you are though, sphelps.

Wow...you seem to have taken this very personal. You own a fish shop by any chance?

GSP, I agree with what you're saying but it's up to everyone else to properly interpret any information given online. I can't be held responsible for any wrong interpretation regardless of my experience.

I agree that there should be limits on fish sizes brought in but unfortunately it's not that simple. LFS's know what fish to bring in and for the most part I believe they do there best to bring in what's reasonable. The problem is there are no standards for the actual size of a "small", "med" or "large" fish and it varies from supplier to supplier and you don't always have control to what exactly they ship to you. In a perfect world this would be different but as we all know this world isn't perfect but I for one am willing to except that.

I don't think Wes was personally attacking anyone, I think he's a good hobbyist and simply sticking up for the hobby in general and the people that make it all possible for us, our LFSs.

I still think if you post on an open forum you do have to be careful and be very specific :wink: I understand people have to make well informed decisions but in many cases when someone experienced from this board or any other says something, people do take it as well informed advice. Really not a big deal, I was just trying to make sure people don't start feeding freshwater fish to puffers.

As I said, I do not blame LFS at all. I agree its people who buy the fish that are more to blame and also collection laws. IMO there should be laws not to limit actual species (unless endangered or threatened) but to limit what size can be collected. Problem is, too many people want to buy large fish instead of having the patients to grow them.

I don't know...seems like very personal attacks from Wes. Or at least that he was taking things very personal. I just think he really could have gone about that whole last post in a much better way. Telling people they have to "draw a line" and decide how they feel about their dilemmas is ignorant at best. The fish for food analogy made me laugh...some people make a distinction between food and pets.

I did admit I contradicted myself on many matters. When you have mixed feelings about things, that does happen.

I am more mad at myself then the store since I depended on what he said in deciding to bring the fish home. But in his defense he has a business to run, and although I might think it is his responsibility to answers questions clearly, perhaps my expectations are too high. My choice to not go there anymore is because I feel I cannot trust his word or he does not have enough knowledge to help me out. Yes I can research, which I did do. If I don't trust a person I am dealing with, why would I do business with them again?

I am happy with the fish. He is strong and healthy, great colours, that is why I picked him. I do not blame him for doing what comes naturally he is a wild fish. I don't know how old he really is, I was told about a year or year and a half. I was told by a very experienced keeper of tangs that the large fish in the store whom is supposed to be the same age as my puffer, must be at least five years old. I have no knowledge of fish to know how you can even tell how old a wild fish really is. I go by the word of the LFS, as this is their business to know.

I am on the fence about things. However young fish do adapt much more easily. Any animal or human can adapt more easily to anything when they are young. I do not feel mature fish should be pulled from a reef. They survived for several years in nature and are entitled to breeding and carrying the circle of life. My big issues with capturing wild fish is the use of cyanide and gas to stun them and capture them. I don't think it is fair to do that and kill many other creatures in the process of capturing fish for the hobbyist. When I look at the big picture when people net them it can be compared to being hunted. It happens everyday to eat or be eaten. However, when they are poisoned and stunned that is crossing the line. When I think of that, then even the larger fish whom are netted would have been eaten by a predator and would be gone any ways. SO there I am contradicting myself again. I see it, and have seen it many times. I just feel it is wrong, and now I am giving myself reasons to justify it. Perhaps when I justify it I can accept what reef keepers are doing.

I guess I change my feelings due to being asked about them and I learn more about the issues I brought up in the first place. Because I am debating with you guys, it makes me open my mind on how things really are... does that makes sense?

So where do I draw the line?

I think it is awful to catch fish with chemicals. Make it a more level playing field and catch them by net. I wish people had some mercy and would leave the big fish in the ocean to reproduce and provide us with young fish that can adapt to captivity. They are more valuable in the oceans then they are in a display tank.

When people go into an LFS and ask questions, the seller should be honest, and/or knowledgeable about what we are purchasing. Some buyers don't always know all the questions to ask, but a seller should try to inform a buyer as much as possible prior to the purchase. Sellers should ask the buyer questions about their set ups to see if the buyer can provide a proper home. I know some people want what they want and are get it no matter what. However people that have an interest in the well being of their fish and tank mates should be regarded.

I think I do read into things too much because I have owned and rescued various animals all my life. I fostered exotic birds that were unwanted because they are too much work. The cockatoo self mutilated herself because nobody paid attention to her. When they hit breeding ago, they become unmanageable due to their desire for a mate and to breed. People think birds can be kept in a cage with little or no care and buy them. I rescued a rehomed a couple of rabbits since people think they can live in a filthy cage with no human contact. I rescued some goldfish from my gym since they were living in a cess pool and could not breath anymore. I rescued Rottweilers and a Pit Bull from horrible fates and they spent the rest of their lives with me.

Perhaps fish are not near to being the aforementioned animals, but because I saw what they went through, it makes me think really hard about ANY creature under my care. I understand I am reading into this all too much, but I have seen a lot of suffering from puppy mills, pet stores and impulse buying of pets people are not equipped to care for. They are just fish, right?

I will stop mentioning why I look into things and think way too much about the fish industry. I know I am comparing things that are not the same but cannot help it anyways. So yes, I am all over the place, but am glad I am addressing my questions and concerns, and being called out for why I think the way that I do.

YES I love the hobby, YES I love buying new livestock for my tank. I am no different then all of you. I don't know where the lines are drawn in this hobby so this is why I asked in the first place. Will I keep my fish? Of course I will. I learned a lot from him, and from the members of this forum.

with time you will be able to train them on squid shrimp mussels (seafood medley) is a great combination and ive even got mine eating pellets. but he's a monsterous lazy old fart now. i always enjoyed feeding mussels and crab legs helps keep the teeth short and the crunching sound is great

You are making me hungry... the fish gets mussels and crab legs while I go hungry. He has been eating garlic prawns instead of clownfish today, and I am getting jealous. They are MY prawns, but he needs them more then I do. I have Kraft dinner in the pantry. I cannot wait to get some crab legs it will be fun to listen to the crunching. I can bet that is messy, I actually can't imagine until I see it myself.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you feel your puffer killing the clownfish was a learned behavior because it was captured at a larger size. You also think that this would have been less likely to happen if you had introduced a juvenile puffer.

Based on my experience with these fish I would say that is a faulty line of reasoning. They are curious and unpredictable regardless of age and this could have happened at any time. I've noticed little difference in behavior between juvi and older imports.

Yeah you're right almost everything was completely irrelevant...???

Again the story changes:
but that's cool I understand why your tired... it's hard to argue when you're not being rational or logical. Better luck next time.

But in the mean time I'm glad your done "playing" with your little toy... sounds like a throw away kinda attitude to me.... "if only we could fix that in the world"?

Belittling my skills with sarcasm only works if they're actually my skills...I never made the picture

Yeah your right my humble 10 gallon is basically emptying the ocean as we speak.

And who's going to stop me from buying these "captive fish" if there is none?? Again your statements are completely irrational.

Passing the buck... it's not your fault it's whoever provided the fish and I wouldn't have killed the guy if I didn't have a gun available to me.

You can blame me or your lfs for whatever you want. You have been, so why stop now.... Doesn't mean any of the blame is founded or true but you can blame whom ever you want.

Always do :D

Nope... I just get frustrated when people are irrational and have swing arguments.

The poster and this thread reminds me of a lady on the radio who "can not believe what Alberta has allowed the oil industry do to the environment!" All this she says as she flies over the oil sands in a plane that is fuel powered. The only reason she could even make such a statement, and the only reason she could see what she was seeing is b/c she was seeing it.

I just get really frustrated with people who are totally ridiculous. They talk and complain but in actuality the whole while they are only implicating themselves.

Sheez. This is a board for posting about our hobby, not an ethics board. Lighten up already.

That's kinda my whole point at the end of the day they're just fish that we are supposed to enjoy. You do what you can to give them a good home but we can't pretend that we feel soooo bad and still keep the fish and keep buying more or I think you're in the wrong hobby.... which is the only thing that I said at the beginning besides #17 I thought it was a clown that ate puffers ahah, #29 lfs do take stuff back, #33 trying to keep the peace,

#37:
You can't play both sides or I don't know how you can be in the hobby.

I'm just saying she's not being rational and am pointing out contradictions in what she's saying and I think she agrees

The problem with mixed feelings and contradictions is it makes half of what your saying garbage and steps on some people along the way.

Just pointing that out... it's ok to contradict yourself but if you point that out because you're confused your and ass and attacking people??

No worries... I'll just keep my frustrations to myself and quietly enjoy the positional yoyos