Great point, but I don't think alot of people would take anyones opinion as gospel. Testing or not, I see grim's work as opinion, nothing else. What i'd like to see more of, especially with t5 lighting is, "This is my fixture, this is my bulb combo, this is a pic of my tank"

Hi Telford

Dimensions to follow this week ;)

Prices?

I am assuming you are going to price it somewhere between a Tek-light and a Powermodule.

Prices will follow and will reflect the very high level of function and quality. I.e digital active cooling, German built single reflectors, European ballasts, quick start wiring and tube sockets. Quality acrylic shielding, solid annodised frame work etc etc. Pretty much far and beyond what is available easily in North America at present.

NO that does not mean they will be out of $$ reach that would not make business sense, and as purchased from CAD$ the units will not suffer ever changing prices or hikes due to exchange rate fluctuations which is effecting many USD$ purchased products at present.

But if you are looking for a cheap $500 fixture no this will not be for you.

These are quality German fixtures made by a renowned German manufacturer - Fauna Marin

There is a post in this thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1509727

on RC where a member posted the lengths of the fixtures but those have been the only reported dimensions and who knows how accurate they are.

These are rough sizes based on the original design, but we felt it was too bulky and as you can see from the pictures the new and now official design is much more sleak.

Sizes
Prices
Earliest availability

All next week ;)

Thanks.

Maybe let Fauna Marin know they need to update their website - there hasn't been an update on the site since 2007 and they list Aquarium Obsessed as the US/Canadian dealer still.

Just as mine - Being worked on ;)

Fortunately over the past few years I have seen prices come down on lots of different reefing equipment - skimmers, reactors, lighting etc. I think there is a demand curve where over $1000.00 for a 48" fixture and 90% of the market isn't interested. I am hoping these will be priced in the Lexus/Acura range rather than the Mercedes price range.

Yes most of the price reduction has been due to the large influx of Chinese goods, which these are not

The units will be priced to compete, but if you are looking for a Mercedes for the cost of a Chrysler then sadly.....

I agree with this sentiment. And given the current state of world economies it would be foolish to release a light that costs more than or equal to ATI's PowerModule. To be the new guy on the block trying to compete with the favorable reviews of the long-standing PowerModule after having left a sour taste in consumers' mouths with the Ultra Solaris would make for a tough sell.

But I assume Fauna Marin has done the market research and realizes this.

Firstly i think you need not compare this to the ATI, the Fauna Fixture has features the ATI does not so that takes away any price comparison anyway.

The other thing that I keep being told is that you cant get ATI in North America anymore???? :question: I also read on another forum that the ballasts used are made in china, no idea if this is the case but if correct then another reason why you can not compare the two fixtures, Quote - "However I am told the VB T5 ballasts in my T5 ATI Powermodule are made in China, and not as reliable as the old all German VB ballasts...?"

Fauna Marin using German made ballasts from the worlds largest ballast manufacturer.

Yes Fauna of course have worked hard to be competitive and the only thing that will influence the launch price will be the cost of parts to build the unit to a very high standard ;)

Remember - You get what you pay for in life always.

Not trying to start anything, honestly, but it sounds either like you already know around how much this is going to cost, or you're prepared for the worst. In your defense, there is a market for high end stuff, I know, I have a 60" sfiligoi stealth on order....lol

HI

Thanks for your great interest on the T5 fixtures.

I know that it is possible to get an big T5 Fixtures for 200 US$.
But this is not that what i want.
We make a new T5 Fixtures with several Optios in dimming, Full light Power and a typical german Quality production.
We make the fixtures in so high quality that i can be sure never need to change a fixture.
All Parts from the Body, cableworks , Reflectors, hanging Kits must be the best available quality for long lifetime, and perfect light output.
We will have the prices ready in the next days then i will posted it.

More later
greets claude

Hi Claude

many thanks for your input, it is clear there is great interest

To put some things to rest - I hope.

As Claude says this will be an amazing fixture that you can keep for the life of your tank or longer, whatever.

Neither Claude or I know the exact cost yet as we still wait some important prices and have not chosen out of the Two German Ballasts manufacturers which one to use, we are still testing to make sure the chosen ballast warrants the use in this lamp.

Price will be competitive and I think you will be surprised when it is launched that everyone could be fearing the worst when the opposite applies, of course depending on your expectations.

If you want a Chinese made lamp or a lamp with chinese made parts, there are plenty out there, cheap reflectors, ballasts that state UL but are not (trust me I have imported them :( ) etc etc. But if you want a lamp that does what it says on the tin and will stand the test of time then hold onto your nickles and dimes just that bit longer ;)

I would like this thread to be more about what the lamp offers than guessing what the price may be when we dont even know ourselves, so if we can leave the cost question for now and come back to it when we know, I am sure then there will be a camp that will say "whoa" and another that will say "yummy" ;)

I really apreciate all of your very kind interest and we will do all we can to meet your expectations as always. PLEASE Keep the thread going :)

I like this analogy. Especially when you consider that the two brands in question come from the same parent company and share many of the basic engineering and even parts. No question that the merc will get you to work in more comfort than the Chrysler but getting to work is the important bit.

Frankly your message is kind of all over the place here but this product looks interesting. My question is, what do you feel the value proposition for this fixture is?

Is it primarily a better build quality? Something that will last and is better put together than say a Tek light? This is IMO a perfectly valid proposition and it obviously works for Mercedes.

Or is it a case where the combination of the ballast, cooling and reflectors result in better output or perhaps bulb life? If so, is this difference dramatic or more in the 5% kind of range ?

Thanks.

To be fair I don't think that Grim ever intended himself to become a definitive source or that he ever tried to represent his results as scientific. I've got the impression more than once that he is uncomfortable with it for many of the same reasons you are.

As with all products we are involved in the manufacturer of or distribution, I am a firm believer in positive marketing so will never state this lamp is better than a particular brand, you may feel That was done in regards to my post about the ATI but that was questions relating to the product rather than the product itself against the new fauna Fixture.

So talking of the Fauna fixture only and not trying to draw comparisons, as said here before, the lights merits will be a balance of functionality/quality and cost.

Are we saying is the fixture going to be better than "anything" else on the market.? NO - We do not hold the right to say that and never will, it is for the buying public to decide that, what we will do however is market strongly its very strong positive attributes, and ensure it will bring a great level of lighting experience the purchaser which will also be assured they are bying into "one" of the best fixtures on the market today

If your looking for us to give you "marketed reasons for choosing this fixture then they would be

High quality German engineering
German/European manufactured parts
Functionality
Performance

Many things you do not see in a lot of light fixtures now on the market, and that is said without drawing any brand comparisons.

I'm not asking for comparisons per se, just details. You say "Functionality" and "Performance" but offer no additional information.

Performance like the ballasts work better? The reflectors are better?

You can answer things like that without direct comparisons.

HI


The lightoutput and the lifetime can be much longer if you
have the perfect composition.
As sample a good reflector can bring more the 15 % more output
Ballasts with Cut off technology brings more the 10 % longer lifetime them normal ballats
There are some more possibility to increase the lightpower and lifetime
and all this things we do in our lamps
greets claude

I think that's fair. I have gotten the same impression from Grim as well. But as you can see in this thread other hobbyists seem to ignorantly (and I mean that in the very literal sense without any offense intended) prop him up as such an authority as to suggest that his "tests" need to be done in order to provide a stamp of approval on anything related to T5 fluorescents. If you look back at his "tests" you'll see they have been wrought with errors (to which Grim has admitted quite admirably). Unfortunately too many hobbyists seem to latch on to the pseudo-scientific "tests" because they appear to be well done without understanding enough about critically appraising research and study design. As someone whose profession is dependent upon critical analysis of research, and as someone who both publishes and critically appraises randomized controlled trials for a living, I can't help but be critical of those "tests". And I simply feel it is necessary for hobbyists to understand that these "tests" and their results are certainly not definitive and should be interpreted with caution.

A few years ago I did a series of tests evaluating the UV output of different florescent bulbs over their useful lifespan. One thing that we found was a higher than expected variance in initial output which tended to narrow over time but was still significant. You can't get definitive results that account for these things without a very large sample size and some good statistical work. I don't think this will happen any time soon and even if it did it's tough to decide what actual impact some of the measures would really have.

One thing that will help people make better choices is an open discussion with manufacturers that goes beyond the marketing bullet points and really talks about their products. I think Aqua Digital and Fauna Marine deserve some brownie points for doing this the way they have with this and some of their other products.

Many thanks for the very kind post. We do try our best to be as open as possible, in fact I can assure you 100% every stitch of info here is all I know, Claude from fauna is now here also and I hope is filling in the gaps to your questions that I can not answer as accurately.

The success of this light fixture is for us to get it right and give everyone what they want so your input is valuable, having said that the unit is now 99% complete so the design and concept won't change from here on.

Please continue to ask/debate and I will do my honest best to give you "non marketing hyped" answers.

I concur. And as I stated before, I would be more inclined to base my decision on a hobbyist's recommendation including, "Hey here's a picture of my tank and livestock, and here's what I think about product X" than I would on misguided "tests". I would know that the effects of product X can't be controlled for in that hobbyist's tank, but I wouldn't be basing my decision on the "measurement" of one single parameter (eg. PAR) that could, in all likelihood, be falsely reported.

Part of my job includes reading and acting upon the results of randomized controlled trials, the majority of which are severely flawed in many respects.

Grim's tests are flawed, as are almost any other trials I have looked at of anything else. I will take the information in these tests, as well as experience from other hobbyists, into consideration when choosing equipment. Unfortunately it takes a year or two for sufficient hobbyist experience to be out there for a new product. Hence the tests. Obviously there will be severe flaws in any testing of aquarium equipment. The testing is not randomized or blinded. No one has the time or money to hang 200 T5 pendants side by side and grow corals under them for a year.

I'm looking for an 8-bulb 48" T5 fixture which is silent, reliable, has a splash guard bulb shield which is easy to remove and clean, is set up for easy bulb changes, and has an easily adjustable hanging fixture. It must not have light bleed/glare into the surrounding room. I'm looking for a 30% improvement in light output compared to my current T5 Tek-light which has served me well for the past several years. I'll need either a year of hobbyist experiences and testimonials, or some comparative testing, before I buy it. And I'm expecting a price between $800.00 and $1000.00, or I will go with the PowerModule.

In my view the over $1000.00 price niche for lights is reserved for the wealthy, or dedicated fanatical reefers. Either of these groups is likely to go with the fixture that has an established reputation as being a high-end product.

I'd personally love to see some photos of the real lights. The giesemann site is particularly bad for showing renders all the time. Any chance we could see what the bodies look like? Even a shot of a shell off the assembly line from a few different angles?

I was planning to retro mh and t5 due to any decent looking fixtures having to be shipped long distances or in some cases not being very easy to even get.

In regards to you wanting a years worth of testing first before purchasing our fixture, I assume you will be waiting a year, other than that to meet your criteria for testing you will have to go for the other lamp you suggest, if of course it is still available, I have struggled in research to find adequate supply chain of this unit, but maybe I am lacking somewhere.

To clear this testing up and get back to the actual lamp thread, Fauna will do the same that all other light manufacturers do in regards to product launch and new products. As there is no accurate governing body in testing such equipment other than certification testing the lamp, we (just as other main stream manufactuers) will not be giving/loaning/selling cheap to any hobbyist or such like that states they have some sort of knowledge in testing a fixture.

Why - As you have all debated, there is no warrantable body out there that ALL could trust.

So we, just like all other manufacturers, will use buyer feedback to decide on the lamp, this is no different than geissman or other quality brands.

What we will do however is continue to answer your questions openly and make sure our dealers have access to demo units to display to you prior to purchase.

There is always a draw back with providing such open pre launch information as this, interested parties will always argue above and beyond what is feasibly possible for a manufacturer to agree to.

Please keep your great technical questions about this important fixture coming :)

Hi Last Light

I hope to have true pictures in the next 10 days, and i agree clear percise pictures are very important and something I will make sure is made available

An 8 lamp 48" ATI Powermodule without lamps is $900 USD from ReefGeek - your only real option for getting a new fixture. You're going to pay the currently hefty exchange rate, duty, brokerage charges, and shipping charges on top of that (in addition to GST and PST which you'd pay for any light purchased within BC or from the US) which is going to far exceed your $1000 ceiling. I guess I'm confused that you take issue with the "over $1000.00 price range" while at the same time saying "or I will go with the PowerModule" when the Powermodule will likely cost around $1300 without lamps and before tax, and you'll end up waiting about 2-3 months to get it.

And with respect to
Obviously no one is going to go to that trouble. The problem is that the "testing" you wanted done by Grim is so far from being even remotely valid or even reliable that it's laughable that you would suggest you would base a purchase decision on his "testing." As far as I know he has one sample of each of the fixtures he tests and a few samples of various reflectors, ballasts and lamps. You keep talking about hanging 200 pendants side by side and growing corals under them for a year but that is so far from the "testing" that Grim does that I'm utterly confused. He measures PAR of lamps and reflectors and takes pictures of the color emitted by lamps. To date I've never seen him perform any comparisons of coral growth or coloration with respect to fixture, lamp, ballast, or reflector design.

Very interesting, just been on RG web site and they have removed ATI from the site.

Wander why :question:

I can not find anywhere in the whole of North America selling this fixture.

So back to the Great new fauna fixture then ;)

Canadian also brings up a valid point here that is a direct benefit to all Canada consumers. The Fauna products are purchased in Euro's converted into CAD and as such not effected by the inflated USD, so you really will pay less than you would for any comparible unit coming out the States for sure, including no import Tax or crazy shipping prices :)

The biggest benefit for the canadian consumer is stability in retail price. We are getting more an more enquires from new European manufacturers seeking a canada based distributor exactly for this reason.

I don't know what you're seeing when you go on reefgeek.com but unless I have a cached version of the site in my browser the ATI Powermodule is still on reefgeek.com for sale. If it's not showing up when you go to the site either my browser is keeping a copy of the site in my temporary files despite me deleting all my cookies and temporary files or you're not following the "T5 Fluorescent" link and only looking at the home page.

If Greg has discontinued selling the ATI lights (which at this point I don't see any evidence of) I would guess after speaking with Greg a couple weeks ago that it would be due to protracted wait times causing a considerable loss of sales. Additionally, and you and Fauna Marin might not be aware of this, Greg is now building his own dimmable T5 lights which are reported to possibly be ready for early 2009. So there will be another new kid on the block at about the same time that Fauna Marin comes out with their offering. And that new offering will also be dimmable with what have been reported to be some of the best reflectors available (and they'll be made in the USA).

Nope looked on two pc's definately not there which sort of confirms my research

Yes i saw the module they have built and dimmable, but working on Dali, which will only work on their controller. The Fauna Light with its dimmable option will naturally work on the GHL as being the most likely partner with its advanced lighting control that no other controller comes close to matching, so much so aquarium illuminaton chose the GHL as its main stay LED light controller. But also the Fuana system will work on other types of systems as well.

There will be an option to purchase the GHL Light II controller with interface with the dimming light units for those who dont have a GHL at a special reduced price, this will give you full light control and climate moon pahsing aswell as temp control and Tunze stream control as well ;) So we are working on some very advanced lighting packages for everyone.

Now you did not think we would get left behind did you :)

How the fauna Dimmables work will not be released right now due to competition, but we hope to have the first batches early next year

Following on from that later next year will also be Dali BUT only once the technology has settled down and of course GHL have intergrated the control with the ProfiLux (possibly with the awaited Profilux III)

The other issue I see, again is price, North American fixtures for the Canadian market will hold a 20% uplift premium due to exchange rate as mentioned in my previous post.

I have not researched more on the RG unit but from the photos it looks more like retofit than pendant, but could be wrong.

I think next year will see some great lighting options for everyone to choose from, you just need to decide, do you want USA technology (usually with European parts anyway) or European technology throughout. Thats not for us to decide, only you the buying public

Some more info for you

Light switching - one powerline from Fixtures to a control unit at the moment is planned that you can control every pair.

Sizes are planned to be -
24 Watt = 650 mm
39 Watt = 950 mm
54 Watt = 1250 mm
80 Watt = 1550 mm

Standard - width with 6 tube units will be 395mm then add a further 100mm per extra tube.

We have chosen as retail standard the following

24w = 6 tube
39w = 8 tube
54w = 10 tube
80w = 10 tube

Anyone wanting different than the retail standard is no trouble but falls into custom order with approx 6 week delivery

Supply - earliest supply from Fauna can be the first week in January. I think but more around the 15th January due to holiday times. Please allow sea Freight shipping time to get to retailers.

Dimming - This will follow on in second wave of production

My point is if I am spending over $1000.00 I will go with what has been proven and generally recognized as an excellent fixture. Plenty of amazing tanks are running these Powermodules and many are TOTM quality or better. For a new fixture without a track record I am not going to pay top dollar.

If the Powermodules are indeed no longer available then that is a shame.

Well if it is not available at least we are providing you with an extremely worthy replacement that actually has more functionality, such as variable active cooling, and industry trusted and recognised ballasts.

:wink:

I wouldn't even pay over 600.00 especially for a florescent setup.

I can't get over the prices of equipment in this hobby, take a 5.00 chunk of metal, bend it, powder cote it, add a 6 buck reflector, and 20.00 worth of hardware. then sell it for over 1000.00 ops, I forgot the 40.00 worth of light bulbs for a 8 light set up.

I know the money is in the set up and tooling of the factory, and no one wants to wait to recover there investment, but why can't company's price more realistically. If this was a shop light with out the bulbs it would sell for 30 to 60 bucks tops and the same work and material would have went into it.

Steve

Well considering "GOOD" ballasts that are able to cope with the spectrum required for Reef tanks, come in at trade cost around $75 before any wiring, quick fire end caps.

Ballasts normally will fire 2 tubes so before you even get off the starting block you are upto $300 trade cost in ballasts before anything else for your 8 lamp set up.

Extrusion is very expensive also and so too is UV protected clear acrylic for bulb protection. I wish it was as easy as you say, bend a lump of metal! Hmmm you seen the tooling involved to get cnc precise fixtures?

Add to that, polished single reflectors, electronics etc etc it does not take much to work out where most the cost lies

If you can find tubes for $5 a piece ($40 stated 8 x 5 ) that produce the correct spectrum also, I will buy 1,000 from you today!!

To get a lamp less than $500 I would be very concerned to what i was buying.

Remember you cant put a shop light in the same catagory as a lamp for a dedicated reef system, they are two completely different beasts. One is there just to produce a visual illumination, the other is to replicate the natural sun. Not an easy task.

OK new information -

lamps will come with control module so there will be only one power line coming out of the module, unlike other Fixtures that have 2 or more and maybe a DC line also

ALL lamps will come with LED moon lights installed, when the lamps go off the moon lights come on.

Dimming - To begin with 24w 39w and 54w will be made available in dimming, the dimming will be controlled by GHL ProfiLux, the ProfiLux simply plugs into the control module of the lamp fixture. 80w dimming will follow on possibly in February

The fixtures will be slightly wider than originally planned to incorporate the latest additions

Later next year there will be further advances in the dimming options

Availability - orders can be taken from late December for first wave shipping in late january, from then on there will be steady supply.

Thats it for now but i am sure you will agree this fixture is turning out to be hard to beat :)

Most ballasts can fire more than 2 lamps at a time.
If you are paying 75 for ballasts find a new manufacturer.
Considering most ballasts come from only three different suppliers in the world a compariable replacement is easy. Advance, workhorse ballasts for example come from GE manufacturing faciltiy

You will not find dimmable ballasts that fire more than 2

And we are supplied with Advance and Sylvania at present and trust me the price of $75 is far less than we actually are quoted.

NON dimmable are cheaper of course, but still does not equate to building a "quality lamp fixture" for less than $500

Anyways, trying to keep this thread on track about the new fixture, if you have any questions directly about this great new fixture please post here ;) If anyone wants to debate fixtures in general please start a thread on the open forum. I will happily chip in

Back to the topic, I will have prices this week guys and many thanks for the growing list of pre orders being emailed to me.