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Although I know that Clams utilize nitrates...it's still seems just against every principle of reefing to add nitrates...lol.
Any new news on your decision regarding a new clam tank? |
I've heard of people adding synthetic nitrates (sodium nitrate or whatever, probably the same thing used for fertilizing planted FW??) to maintain a consistent level of nitrate of 5 for the sake of their tridacnid collection.
So you're not alone in your thinking, although at the time I thought the fella was nuts, and to an extent I'm still not sure what I think about it. I have a 115g now with 12 clams and there is low nitrates but I don't think it's zero and I don't really think the clams are having a huge significant impact on the nitrate. I'm not sure, maybe they are. It's hard to gauge it objectively. I had a nitrate probe for measuring subtle changes in NO3 levels (because if there's one thing I obsess over, it's nitrate and phosphate levels), but the probe is shot and it's $200 to replace the probe (the whole thing costs around $250 in the first place so I haven't quite gotten around to doing that). Adding nitrates does seem to go against intuition for reefkeeping but if you can demonstratively observe nitrates disappearing at increased rates then indeed I can see there being benefit. The question I have though is, what would we think the benefit to be? Bigger brighter clams or just healthier longer living clams? Or perhaps higher surviving numbers when rearing juvenile clams (since the survival rate for tiny clams is, at least has been in my experience, not great). |
It's a really tough call and question.
I will snap a picture of what I am encountering with my big squamosa. Here is the honest to god un edited story. Set up: 40 gallon tank, with 15 ish gallon sump. 2200gph pump t'd off to reduce flow to tank. Red Sea pryism, Coral life Calcium reactor with #2 figi coral rubble, 20lb Cylinder run with a reef keeper 2 controler and ph probe. Hagen Fluval 304canister filter as a nitrate engine and Carbon Filter. Lighting is a 250w 14000k Dual ended HQI, with two 55 w dual t5 strip lites 10000k actinic combo. The tank depth is 16". Temperature control set at 80 with a 1F varriance. Chemistry: KH floats between 180-200 ppm daily. Calcium levels can not get above 380ppm. Mg, St, Mb dosing with out testing. Periodic Iodine dose (lugols) also Dose on biweekly with Salifert Sort Coral complete trace (for Mushrooms) Ph 8.2, Phosphates 0 (heavy use of phosphate ion exchage resign) Nitrates use to sit at about 20-30 ppm (will get into that later). Live Stock: (don't hurt me, it's over stocked!) 15 clams. 1 Squamosa-10 inch 1 gold Maxima- 10 inch 1 Blue Crocea- 7 inch 3 blue crocea- 3-4 inch 1 Dersa- 5 inch(ish) 1 Tiger pasley ultra maxima (4-5 inch) 2 blue ultra maxima's- 3-4 inch 2 gold Maxima's- two inch 2 Squamosa- one inch 1 Gold Maxima one inch 2 two stripe clowns 1 fire Clown 1 mandrin gobie 2 histrix gobies 2 blue azure damsels 1 six line wrass 2 Flame scallops 3 feather dusters 2 coco worms tuns of button pollyups tuns of mushrooms (red, blue, green, green stripe) Green Plate 3 open brains 1 button coral 2 pink Torch corals 1 hydrophora (spelling don't know like a acropora??but not) 1 Pink tip Acropra (don't know the exact species) huge Chalace coral brain coral New orange monapora who's exact name leaves me. encrusting montapora Algae eating hermits 2 Golden Eels Im sure there are other frags that I forgot about. I think that's most of the stuff in the tank though. Ok here is the scoop. I try to remember to feed the Plankton and phyto plankton, nanocropsis ect every other day. I have stripped as much as possible macro algae (there only a small bush of green wire that reminds me of pubic hair... I thought that would be funny with all the "clams" Sorry laddies im a little bent :biggrin:) I try to over feed daily to keep nitrates up to no success. The nitrates use to sit at around 10-30 ppm now are un measurable. Here is the problem. My larges Squamosa started to loose color. Kinda pasty looking even though there is at lease 3/4 inch shell production since October 20th (the day i turned on my reactor, and yes I actually measure it). All the clams look healthy for the most part. no pinched mantle, no snails ect. They open, move, react to light every thing! EXCEPT A WHITE CIRCLE on the big squamosa. I left it alone for about 3 months. All the while the nitrates zero. The white spot got larger and larger and started to appear on the other side of the mantle. So, I did a bunch of research using refrences from a thesis paper on bleached clams. All of which lead to the reduction of the replacement zoanthae from their uptake. Which, is how the clams use the light to produce food when not filterfeeding. At first I turned off my protien skimmer and cranked up the phytoplankton. No change in color loss. Then as before mentioned took water from preadator tank and hiked nitrates to 10-15 ppm. Within hours a gues aquaium geek pointed out that the squamosa was looking brighter then the day before, unprovoked! The Clam contiunes to improve in color density since this sunday (Feb22 when i dosed the tank with nitrates). The end goal, I think... with adding nitrates is to turn around the color loss with the squamosa (my baby, pride and joy!) and prevent further color loss with other clams (it happened in one other only, a crocea that was different) And to do it with a more constient controled way. I hope to support the nitrate waste from the fish (which is clearly not enough in this case) to keep it around 10-20 ppm in hopes to maintain healthy clams in an envriroment that has high competition. Also, I have a dream to go to a larger clam tank with a large Gigas. I expect this will greatly increase the demand on the tank so I hope to kinda "perfect" the application of dosing sodium nitrate now. Well, that's the theory in any event. Anyone who has any thought on this please post it. Trust me I welcome any idea or opinion. thanks, I know that was a big post. |
WHOA, and I thought I was overdoing it. That's it I am buying a ton more stuff, glad
you shared. Off I go. |
If it were me, .. the only thing I'd do different is start with a target of 5ppm not 10-20. But that's me, I guess it's where your comfort level is. Think of it this way though: if you have 0 of anything (NO3 in this case, but it applies to any measurable parameter), it means that consumption of said parameter matches production, ie., not so much that you don't have it in the first place.
So a consistent level of any nonzero value, maintained by dosing, means you're adding it, and it's available in some form of surplus to the consumers. Ie., if a clam is consuming nitrate, and you're adding nitrate and testing nitrate to ensure it doesn't go over 5, then that clam has nitrate available to it just as much as it would were the level 10ppm. But at 5ppm, things that may be stressed by NO3 will be less stressed than with 10ppm or 20ppm. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but that's how I would look at it. There may be a benefit to going higher, I don't really know, but my intuition tells me that 5 should be just as good as 10 and would be less obtrusive to your other inhabitants. I had some bleach spots in my larger squamosa too for a while. It took nearly two years for them to blend in and disappear - very long time. I've never had zero nitrates in my tanks, even right now with my cube tank I have to dose Nitrate Destroyer to maintain <2.0ppm and I have 12 clams. So I don't think nonzero nitrates helped it recover in my case. However my tank is a larger water volume and with fewer clams than your tank (I topped out at 14, but am now down to 12 due to some recent losses), so maybe that accounts for the difference. |
What you are saying makes perfect sense. What test kit are you using to get to 2ppm? That is the only thing I kinda struggle with as far as the measurement goes. There is little difference between the 5 and 0 ppm reading on my kit. And, my wife will not let me spend the bucks on a probe :mrgreen:
I am really graspin at straws on this one. The only thing i can figure enviromentally is the nitrates. And, the only thing that appears to have been having an effect on the clam. Im wondering if it is a life stage thing... It is after all the biggest of all my clams. Perhaps it's needs have changed. I can't find any solid info. I have a maxima that's spots (you know the patchs of different colors in the mantle, i call em spots) has gone white. The rest is still as purple as ever that is why I think it's different then the squamosa situation it's far more difuse and faded over all. It almost looks like colmunaris (sp) on freshies.... Im considering a fresh water dip and or antibiotics. Waiting to see what happens. |
I'm using both Elos and Salifert right now. The Salifert one is nice in that if you look through the vial sideways instead of top-down, the reading is ten times what it is from the top, so if it reads out at 20 through the side then you know it's 2.0 and I find this easier than trying to colour match the subtle clear shades of the lower range numbers.
The probe is definitely the nicest way to take a reading but yeah, unfortunately a bit spendy. I believe Hanna Instruments also has a nitrate photometer, although if the phosphate meter is any indication it won't be any cheaper than the probe (at least not significantly). |
Hi Mark,
Hey sorry got a little side tracked. Yes it is a bit odd that Im considering dosing with nitrates. It comes down to two things. need and reliability. If in time i need to boost the nitrates I want the most reliable means. My lab associate is arranging for some reagent grade sodium nitrate to try out. Yes, I have come to a final decision on the clam tank. Im going with a plan similar to your suggestions from a few weeks ago. Im looking to custom design something on the order of 30*36(or 48 if the boss lets me) with a height of 18 inches. Drilled on two corners. Plus i think I have a means to control the surface aggitation better then the dar waterfall design. Give me a ring this weekend if you have time. Come check out my sad clam. |
Sounds good, I think I'll do that!
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Do you have a picture of the squamosa in question? I'm really curious to watch this develop over time. Maybe photos of all your clams so later on down the road you can show changes through some time-lapsed photos.
I know practically nothing on the Nitrate dosing front. I've heard some stuff here and there, but I've never really searched for any academic publications on it. If anyone has any, I'd be really interested to find how it is that clams use nitrates, or how it is that we know they are using them. |
I will forward what I have when i get the site again. I printed it out and moved on... forgot the paper. It is a thesis out of the states on clam bleaching.
I don't really think you need to dose the nitrate unless you have a zero measure with lots of clams. Im guessing that it ma be a bit risky if one screws up... I have calculated the dosage for the whole tank to end up at 10 ppm. I plan to start at 1/4 dose or so... and se what happens. |
Back Again!
My last posting on this whole shingding was in March, Sorry lots has gone on since... but back now. Ok, First, the bleached clam. I have pictures some where that I will put up shortly. Since the last post the clam had progressed to more white then any other color. I was very distressed. I continually dosed my tank with water from our predator tank (40-80 ppm nitrates), weekly a 20% water change (adding dirty water! yes takein clean out) This seemed to arrest the color loss, and very slowly started to turn it arround. VERY SLOWLY. So in frustration I added a second 250w metal halide with a new bulb in the old m/h. Both at 14000K. HOLLY CRAP! The color is back, and not just back it's darker then when I got the clam. There is even Black banding coming up in the tissue of the Squamosa. New pics to come. Every thing is just poping. There were two casualties, I had a heat surge that cooked out my accro's, and one weak clam. But I also gaind a fantastic maxima in the mean time so im only down one. more to come latter today. |
Excellent news Scott! So it turns out that bulbs do need to be changed every now and then...:wink:
Sorry to hear about the acros...never fun to lose coral. |
Yup,
it really a marked improvement. There were some side effects, biggest of all was that the majority of my mushroom's crawled to the under side of the rocks, so they are harder to see now. but still the key is that the Clams are the focus. I was down in vancouver last week... on the way out I poped into the aquarium. They have a spectacular gigas specium there. I want it, LOL my clam tank is better though.... So it has re-kindled my gigas goal of a large clam tank.. I am considering collapsing my tang/ angel tank and selling it to front a much larger tank... Wooo, i am actually anquishing on this. In any event, I agin am at a turning point for my clam tank. Things are gettin too big now and starting to interfere with each outher. I am stittin at over an inch and a half growth since february 2008 on my squamosa. Every thing else except the large crocea are showing strong growth. I am going to re-decorate the tank structure soon, and possibly cull some of the rock from the tank... I will have before and after pics. |
I have finally managed to re-do my tank to give the clams a little more space. They are still overlaping each other...But at least they have enough room to fully open up. I had a frog spawn fall off a piece of rock and smoke one of my really small crocea's.
Still no word on a gigas. Geesh. I am one step closer to figuring out what im doing with my Clam tank. Regretfully, my camera that was just fixed craped out again. Little longer for pics to come |
Had seepman over for a beer on the weekend. He planted a thought on my clam tank that has stuck. A large shallow flats style tank. Im thinking 18 inches bul long and 24 front to back.
Thinkin it's going to be a custom self made thing.... Not 100% on that though. Still lamenting on it. I am in dire need of some pepermint shrimp. Any one seen any around? |
Glad I could give you some ideas. The tank is looking great given the limited amount of space you have. I think the shallow tank would look great with that clam forest you've been working on.
hmm...I haven't seen any peppermints locally for quite a while. I'll keep my eyes peeled for you. |
The polka dot one is amazing!! I always thought crocea needed to be on a rock, but all yours are in the sand...do you have anything under them? I am really new to keeping clams, and would love to have some of the amazing ones like you have
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Okay am I blind or something? I'm not seeing any photos!
I'm also looking for a gigas and I've had no luck. However if I do luck out, I have a friend that travels to and from Vernon regularly that could probably bring a clam out to you if one could be arranged. Read any good clam papers since the last time? |
Yeah sorry I'm with Michika. All I see is blah blah blah wish you could see this because it's so awesome, but you can't, nyah nyah, blah blah blah no pictures blah blah blah.
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ok, Fair enough. My camer has really crapped out! Honestly. Here is what im going to do though.... I will get my buddy to come over and take some pics and I will post them.
I have a shipment That i am I am picking up today. On it are three new clams...:). In preperation, I just re-did the tank again. This time changing the sup strate as well. They are all much happier. Sorry I have not resplonded sooner. If I can track down any Giggas I wil Private message you all. I have a supplier who sees them from time to time. For now you all have to look at the earlier pics. :P As far as the Crocea on a rock.... nope. Only one of mine has stayed attached as of this date. They all drop off at about 3 inches. Then settle in the substrate. Mind you, My tank is well lit and shallow. |
Scott, some great photos! The clams are looking pretty happy in your new setup. Any news on a new tank?
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lol, No new tank yet. It does not look like it's going to happen too soon....LOL Spent our return money (ear marked for tank) on a 50 inch lcd..... I suppose I will have to make do with that for now...:sad:
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Wow that is all I can say Wow !!
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Thanks for the photos! They look great.
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Well,
Good news-bad news. I have set up and completed my large tank build (225). But alas, I have had a major crash in my clam tank. All told, 11 out of 16 clams toast. I have fianlly managed to arrest the losses (i think). So, I am now starting to re-stock my new clam tank (100 gallon bow front) with more critters. In the transfer from the 40 gallon to the 100, I had a heater blow out and cause a major heat surge. Total Freak act, but it was costly. Now I have a 1/5th hp chiller in route, and have tweeked my heating system. The good news is that the Really big maximia survived, however the 9 inch squamosa did not. But it did provide an entertaining feed for my two zebra eels. (it was all ready dead) As soon as i can I will have pics of the suvivors and new additions. Merry freakin christmas. |
yes I am a little bitter.
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Ouch buddy...so sorry to hear.
So where did you fit that 225? I know your place and I'm having trouble with the mental picture. |
[quote=NAS;475043]
I had a heater blow out and cause a major heat surge. Total Freak act, but it was costly. This is not a freak act. Lots of crappy heaters out there. Would you mind giving up the make of the heater. You should sent the heater company a bill for your clams! See if there is customer service left in this world. Hope it gets better for ya |
LOL,
I did not actually think of that. The rep for the distrobution company is a friend. Im going to give him a call. I have switched it to an E??bojager (sp) and also adjusted the placement in the tank. It was in the sump when it poped, now in the tank. I dought they will pony up the grand worth of clams. It's worth a try though. As far as the 225, Mark you will have to come over for a beer. Call me! I remove the three bow fronts from the living room, Combined the two reef into the 225 it now sits where my corner reef was and along the wall. The TV is moved to where the fresh corner was. The fresh corner is now my clam tank. The wife's tank is no more. The freshies went into the other corner bow freshie tank in dining room. The nano was condensed into my clam tank. My old clam tank i traded (plus a few bucks) with dobber for his 225. The Big Maxima is doing better now, I have the big crocea, a small crocea, Small Maxima, and the large Derasa. Im soothing the pain now that the tank has settled again. 5 clams on order from a trans shipper due today. My fingers are crossed. My chrismas present to me...Hopefully im still married when the bill comes in. The wife does not know. LOL |
Oh no, this is horrible news!!!
I have had the exact same thing happen to me twice, except in my case nothing in the tank survived the 98 degree water. When this happened to me one was a cheapie heater, I switched that out to an Ebojager thinking I could avoid the problem by using a better brand. The Ebo was the second heater to cook my tank. Since then I always keep two heaters in the sump that when added together provide the correct wattage needed. Example: 2x150w instead of 1x300w. This way if one of the heaters gets stuck on it doesn't have the power to cook the tank. Since changing to dual heaters, I have had one heater get stuck on, and it only managed to raise the system's temperature by 1.5 degrees. HTH. |
Well, the smoke has cleared for now. Or at least it appears to have. I just poped in two more maxima for a total of 5. My large maxima just spawned in my tank. O my god it's gross....
Let's just say my protien skimmer is working over time. There is lots of macro algae, so it should be interesteing to see if any of them take. Now, the new tank design is ok. Im's thinking of doing a re-build on the rock structure. I have not decided. Picture soon... |
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