What a concept!!

"Or my understanding of things there is no rule against posting "ANY ONE DEALING WITH VENDOR 'X' PLEASE PM ME" "

Agreed, seems the simplest way to me.

Sorry Catherine, no lock here. Good try though :)

Its been awhile...so I thought I might as well try.

Will the mods let us know what comes of your discussion about vendors?

You can have a future IBTL credit.

Absolutely.

Have we all not had this discussion already at least 10 times about this issue?
And has it not all came out the same way. Act like an adult,form your own opinions and if others ask pm them about your experience?Because in all honesty if this vendor is still up and running full swing then apparently someone is happy with the service there.And no i have no idea who everyone is talking about. I have a general idea and if it is who i think it is then i did post a question on the board. Got a few mixed reviews and went ahead and got burnt. Oh we'll i am a gotta learn the hard way kinda guy. But i won't go there again and if someone asks i will send them a pm.But to turn this all around on the moderators is insane.Why is that such a hard concept? It is not the moderators job to ensure quality service from a vendor. Last time i checked it was the vendors job. So if you have a problem with a vendor take it up with the vendor.If you receive poor service you don't go back. Happens everyday at every other store,restaurant etc...in this world.

Just my 2 cents worth though i guess.

I don't think the MODS are to blame for the actions of the vendor, and there isn't a business on the planet that hasn't had a complaint. I think it's fair to say that as a MOD you should weight the amount and type of complaints about vendors and make your decision on wether to pull their sponsorship. I'm sure you are not recieveing equal complaints about all the vendors, and even though it does sound silly to say peole won't buy form other Canreef sponsors because of this (I am not one) people can choose to spend their money as they wish. This is a great board, with pretty much no issues other than this the MODS do a great all around job and I'm sure they will take care of the currnet issue.

Vender x uses this forum to reach reefers all across Canada. If said vender can not or will not do the things necessary to ensure the survival of the livestock they are "pushing" then......

Vendor "Y" uses the yellow pages to get people all across the city. Do you avoid yellow pages now? Didn't think so...

A bus I rode had an ad saying Lululemon pants will make my butt sexy; they lied. I'm never riding buses again, and you shouldn't either. Right? Nah, didn't think so....

This is a very difficult area of discussion.
This is a free membership Bulletin Board, because it is a free membership Bulletin Board it requires Sponsors to pay the bills, oh yes it costs money to maintain this Bulletin Board.
This Bulletin Board runs a fine line between its Membership and its Sponsors. Without its Sponsors there is no Bulletin Board. The Staff do not have the time or background to investigate any of the complaints that get lodged here. The Membership can quickly manifest a problem into something that would have any Sponsor questioning their sponsorship.
The Staff can not take sides and represent either the Member or the Sponsor, there are other avenues that the member should follow such as.

The BBB (Better Business Bureau) is an organization set up to help protect the buying public. They actually offer method of reconciliation between Retailers and Contractors and the Buying Public.

You can also set up a polls within this Bulletin Board to get an effective answer to:

Where do you shop?
Which of these products do you use?

Or you can set up a Bulletin Board without Sponsors. One that is supported only by Memberships only.

Tom R

Tom, thank you. I think you've hit it on the head. We are looking at options for a poll, with a rating system. No comments are accepted, just a 1-5 rating. I know every vendor I've dealt with personally will hit a 4 or 5, and those that hit all 1's like the one in this thread may, we are willing and happy to see them advertise elsewhere.

Honestly, there are very few boards that run as smoothly or with as little controversy as Canreef. As a mod on another fish forum, I can attest to the fact that when things are going this well, its because of the hard work the mods & admin are putting in behind the scene to catch things before they get out of hand.

So instead of coming dowon on fellow hobbyists who VVOLUNTEER their time here to make Canreef our online reefing home, do as the others suggest and post a "Please PM me with reviews of X vendor."

I have tried, in the past, to warn fellow reefers if a particular vendor was not a good LFS to deal with through PMs. However, if nobody knows you're planning to do this, then nobody can tell you about good or bad experiences.

Just my $.02

Anthony

I think this would be a wonderful addition to this site.

This really does work.

I asked fellow members to pm me their frag vendor experiences & my inbox quickly filled with replies.

1 had amazing reviews all across the board.

1 had mostly good reviews.

1 had mostly bad reviews.

I chose accordingly & was very pleased with the result.

Plain & simple.

.

Constructive criticism is appreciated from the members of canreef also, no need to start a big flame war over an issue that in reality requires a final consensus of both staff and mods right? I have to agree with Brad though Ephraim, to say that your not going to shop with any of the vendors because of a single one (That I'm sure you know the identity of and if not shoot me a PM) is like saying "One store in Calgary treated me wrongly so I'm never shopping in Calgary again". All of the vendors are competitors not a giant team hell bent on bad service towards the canreef populace. If anything having more vendors creates competition and better service (As I have personally seen from MULTIPLE vendors here). As others have said to fix the problem the vendor "Immunity" idol has to be taken away or replaced with a better action plan.

Levi

Since I am not the sponsor in question that got this thread started I guess I should have just ignored it but I don't like how it's turned into an attack on the "mod squad" and lumping all vendors together in a negative manner. And for the record I'm not just some guy with a credit card #
That is your right but obviously not very well thought out.
It's irresponsible statements like this that are quickly typed in the heat of the moment that contribute to the reasons "bad reviews" are not allowed. There will sometimes be issues with what one purchases anywhere but some people tend to get carried away and would post negative comments about a vendor before they are given an opportunity to correct whatever the issue was. Should the vendors start posting bad customer experiences with the members as well or perhaps publish a list of known "tire kickers" who never follow up their promised purchases. The whole thing is just silly.
I agree with this 100% if there are unresolved issues. Again that is on the assumption that the vendor was contacted and given the opportunity to make things right.
Great idea as long as when the "poll rating" idea is used it's not anonymous. There needs to be accountability from the members who post there in the same way it is expected from the vendors. If people have to give their name and others can see how they voted they are more likely to be honest.
As mentioned by several members PM'ing works very well and I endorse that as the best course of action to get your own vendor reviews.

Greg, I'm not sure we have that option, but we'll look into it. To my knowledge, at this time we can only internally audit who voted.
And thank you for your well tempered and professional thoughts on this issue.

To all those that have posted here, supporting the Canreef "staff", THANK-YOU.

To those that dont, {I still dont get it}, well I deleted my post from first thing this morning as I would have likely had to resign after posting it. My mind cant grasp, how members can run down and call staff members some of the names they get called, just because they offer their time freely to help run an aquarium board, for the hobby we all love.

If we posted a list of some of the names we have been called, you would be shocked. Well maybe not. As mentioned, some options are being discussed. But they need to be done so with the boards owner, who foots the bills and deals with our sponsers.

Thanks

Having been on canreef for awhile. I can remember a time when Vendor rating type posts where able to live for a few days until they got stupid.
What I noticed was that the majority of people complaining about vendor never bothered to contact the vendor to seek some form of corrective action. They would simply spew off about what a crappy experience they had and they will never shop there again.
I always felt this was unfair to the store as there might have been a valid reason for the poor performance that day and compensation could resolve the issue.

I think people need to be mature about how they rate each vendor and ensure your rating is valid and not just emotional.

Jason

Thanks Jason. That is exactly the reason vendor ratings got pulled. While most of the posts remained mature and intelligent, there was always someone willing to ruin it for everyone by spewing pure stupidity. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen, but unfortunately, here, like everywhere, a few ruin it for all.

People who want to review businesses are free to create their own site for that. There are lots of places where you can post for free or create a website for free.

Examples:
http://groups.yahoo.com/
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/learn2...rks4_Free.html

Here are examples of people publishing their reviews.
http://askville.amazon.com/aquarium-...uestId=5341079
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...k_VAS_III.html
http://www.theaquarians.net/Articles...ore_review.htm

I live in a small town that has very limited SW shopping, so I depend almost entirely on out-of-town supply. I have PM'ed other members for information about various vendors and in every instance the responses were timely and accurate. In fact, when I first read this thread I PM'ed the thread starter and was given the information within minutes. Most of the members of Canreef seem to me to be very willing to help out fellow reefers. I have on several occasions been PM'ed by the moderators as well and been given good advice.
If members would use this practice more often there would not nearly be as many unfortunate incidents; and vendors who do not provide a decent service would soon have to change their ways or face reduced sales.
Seems simple enough to me.

I think vendors should have their return policies clearly stated. As a consumer I would feel better and as a seller I think it would reduce complications for DOA issues.

While I agree with you Wayne.. I also think its not hard to ask the vendor before you place an order what his or her stance on certain issues that you are concerned about are. :wink:

As a consumer we have to take responsibility for our own purchasing decisions....... "Caveat Emptor" ............. "Let the Buyer Beware"

Do your own research..... like others said........ post a thread asking for PM's on dealings with the vendor you want to buy from.

I know that I have PM'd other board members my own experiences and I have asked people I know on the board about there experiences with vendors I want to deal with (or other members with stuff to sell).

Some people ask for vendor rating threads........ the majority of the threads quickly degenerate into personal name calling and serve no constructive purpose......... which is why a majority of boards (not just reef related) do not allow vendor rating threads.

The mods have other things to worry about like spammers and keeping threads on topic, etc. It's a thankless job that can be time consuming. I think the mods on this board are doing an excellent job. Thanks to all the Staff!!! :)

Just my 0.02 on the matter.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

If the vendor has unethical business practices like the one I dealt with, they will just tell you what you want to hear before you place an order. I asked do you use a styrofoam box to ship. Then the stuff arrives in a wet cardboard box with styrofoam popcorn.:surprise:Then when something goes wrong they already have your money and tell you to pound sand. THe lesson I have learned is use this fourm to your advantage and ask members advice or opinions on the vendor you plan to use before hand. Looking at the 200 pms I have received I'm sure I would have gotten the idea on this vendor. My fault. :redface: I will still continue to use other online vendors, but not without doing my home work first.
And to everyone that has pm'd me on this thread, thanks for sharing your tips and ideas with me I really appreciate it.:biggrin:

Exactly. Thanks for that Vic. Sometimes one would think the Canreef staff is a lone dictatorship and all the other boards let all this crap go on. Although there are some.

Yes, but....
 

I agree with what Vic said. I know a couple of the mods and they really are trying to do the best possible job. With that, however, I do think there is a "responsibility" (if you will), we all have to help out others in our community.

I think (most of us) are mature enough to be able to give feedback on vendors without turning it into a mudslinging contest. Facts are facts-period...If there is a company that is taking advantage of our reefing community, why would we all want to ignore it? It's the elephant in the room and serves no one-including the company. I have been on the receiving end of a bad deals, and I have even had another who have felt like I gave them a bad deal. With both scenarios it was nice to be able to try to resolve the issue. Sometimes they can be resolved peacefully-and sometimes not. But, I wouldn't have known that there was even an issue had I not been told. And I would much rather try to remedy a situation-and maybe fail-than not to know about it at all and be known as the "cheater".

I know that the mods are in a difficult position-ethically and legally-but Canreef is a place we choose to turn to for information, advice, a place to vent, to help others, etc. We all have one thing in common, and that is our love for this hobby. I would think that is one of the main reasons Canreef was created...not so we could be preyed on by the unscrupulous with no warning. In all honesty, how many vendors would risk losing our community's business? One, two? Good riddance! It just allows a greater opportunity for the quality vendors to make more sales and allows us the opportunity to go into a transaction with our eyes open-not on blind faith.

I know this has been a touchy topic for quite a while, but I hope we can resolve this in a manner that serves all involved.

Take care.
~M

Wow, I go camping for one night and miss all the drama. *sigh*

While it's already been said a few times, I feel the need to reiterate my support for Canreef and its Moderators, who give freely of their time and energy to make this place run smoothly. I'm not sure how in the world any of them are responsible for a dead box of coral that arrived at someone's doorstep? That's the most obtuse line of "reasoning" I've heard all day (and I was just camping with four high-risk youth who define "obtuse" on an almost minute-to-minute basis).

I appreciate the message of the original poster: frustration, seeking advice/resolution, and warning others. That's fair; that's Canreef-ish. Although at times I've wished I could jump online and air my frustrations publically, I know it doesn't make Canreef a good place to be.

Let's continue to be grown up and pro-active. In the future, if I'm going to spend $300 online, I'll be sure to ask around first, as I'm sure will the original poster. As I'm sure will ever rational person who's followed this thread. I think that's the point....right?

Thanks for the initial post I think a large amount of things that needed to be discussed between member and mod alike have been covered! Goes to show that even when this community is at each others throats were still here for each other.
Levi

Holy cow, this is already at 8 pages. Am I the only one around here that has to work on saturday? :lol:

I am at work too! This has been some good reading! :lol:

I did not read through the whole 8 pages, skimmed through some posts, and read some posts.

As with other members, I do believe that canreef staff are not be blamed for this unfortunate event. Being a vendor is simply paying to advertise on this website, and that is all.

However IMO, since this is an open public forum, we should not need to use the "underground" PM system to find out the quality of any vendor. We should be able to read publically on the forum, what other people's experiences are of any local retailers and online vendors. Just my opinion.

Edit: can someone PM me which vendor(s) I should be avoiding? :lol:

it's reasons like this that customer service is SO much more important nowadays than advertising. Spending time and money on satisfying customers ON THE FIRST TRY yields far better returns than just throwing money at advertising because people are more connected than ever and WILL tell their friends about poor experiences.

Yes, the vendor could have a chance to correct the problem but if another vendor doesn't have to put out fires all the time than people will go there instead.

The bottom line is customers are more savvy than ever and in any service industry your business HAS to recognize that and provide what people want or else there WILL be ramifications. Long term ramifications.

The statistic is that if someone has poor experience at a store they're 50% likely to never shop there again. However, if a trusted friend tells them of a bad experience at a store the chance is 80% that they won't go there in the first place. Word of mouth is extremely powerful because of the internet and vendors must make sure they provide the best customer service experience possible on the first try. Putting out customer service fires is pointless if you stop the fires from happening in the first place.

That's the rub......... this is not a public forum......... it's a private forum.

I remember way back a LFS (not an advertiser) threatened to sue the board because of people making unfavourable comments about their business.

All the mods ask is that we don't make vendor rating threads because they just are not constructive. If you really want to know about a vendor...... ask for pm's or pm some of your friends who you trust on the board for their opinions.

Eventhough this is a private forum, the mods give us plenty of freedom and it a pretty good place to exchange idea.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

I agree with the concept that buyers need to take the responsibility to research a potential vendor fully on their own. PM is a good way to accomplish this.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable for a consumer to be frustrated given the policy that negative reviews are censored while positive ones are left - it clearly leaves a hugely skewed impression. Say for instance I move to Victoria from Seattle. I get on Google and search for something like "coral frag online vendors in Canada reviews" and some cached links to posts on Canreef come up. I read some positive reviews about numerous vendors and draw the conclusion that they're all great so I pick the one that has the prices I like only to discover that the particular vendor is atrocious and all negative reviews have been censored. I think this situation is very likely and if I was the victim I would certainly be miffed.

I don't know about everyone else but when I'm looking for a vendor and there are no reviews about them at all and others have rave reviews, to me thats the same as a bad review and therefore should be avoided

This is getting boring

There is nothing illegal about posting negative opinions on a forum. Even if any retailer or vendor seeks legal action against canreef, nothing will happen in the end. After all, we are in Canada and we do have the right of freedom of speech. I do understand that the owner of this board may not have the financial support or time to go to court, but IMO, it is the right thing to do.

Of course, what canreef decides to do, is their own choice. As other people have said, if you don't like this board go to another one or make your own.

100% agree, I would be mad too if I were in that kind of situation.