I completely disagree with this statement, the ocean in its most pristine places is naturaly an Ultra Low Nutrient and naturaly bright enviroment using the power of the sun. Some of the reefs are comprised of miles and miles of shallow ultra clear water with prodominant coral colors that would put most tanks to shame. It is incorrect to think brown is the only "natural" color or the most common color of the natural reef. By using Zeovit or other similar pricipals we are only trying to replicate the fact that our corals are not stuck in an enclosed glass box.

Also remember that the ocean does not have powerfull actinic lights poised over top of it; however, it does have the ultra power of the sun sitting somewhere around the 5500K range. Stick a 5500K rated 1000 watt light over your tank then see what the colors look like! One would be pretty surprised how dull they would look.


http://batchisthenewshit.files.wordp...coral_reef.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/kaylinq/blog/elkhorn.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/88...410736.jpg?v=0

Well. I agree there are some nice colors in the wild, but honestly, for every blue coral, I've seen 3 brown ones. Just saying brown is a natural color variation for corals.

come on guys, it's not ALL about colours.
doesn't anyone just like their reefs for the natural mini microcosms that they are?

No, pretty much it's all about colors. Sometimes I brag about the little ecosystem, but honestly, I want a blue and purple ecosystem, not a brown one.

ya that is true the colors are what make the reef stand out IMO. It just seems very hard sometimes to get it looking amazing , may be that is why every tank is totally different .. some need more TLC and other s well its just luck of the draw.

A "natural looking reef" was not part of my intent in that statement. The ULN was.

I never said super colourful corals don't exist just that they are in the minority. As a matter of fact your third pic illustrates my point for me.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/88...410736.jpg?v=0

Compare that to something like this month's TOTM at reefkeeping mag.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...totm/index.php

Quite a difference no?

Why would an animal dependent on photosynthesis invest some of it's energy in creating so many pigments that block PAR? It must benefit from it in some way and the only way that makes sense is the same reason you tan when you spend time in the sun, protection.

Look up some of Dana Riddle's articles on coral pigments for more explanation.

Well the sun happens to generate plenty of light in the 420nm range. Due to the water this light is moving through, shorter wavelengths are well represented at the depths you find photosynthetic coral.


I never said I disagreed with this methodology or others like it but I don't think the idea of promoting it as "natural" made any sense. If it works for you then great but don't try and tell me it's wonderful because it's "just like nature" or some such BS. Save it for the granola munchers in the smelly sandals. I'm not paying $30 for 2 grams of potassium with a pretty label on it.

midgetwaiter you work at a LFS?? by chance

[/quote][/quote]

Good point; however, take a frag off each coral you see in that pic and put them in an LFS, which coral are people most likely to buy? I happen to think that most of us populate our tanks by choice with the specimens that have a natural tendency to be more colorful than the next average coral. The picture does illustrate lots of browns and this is exactly why I posted it.

The corals pictured are all at about the same depth and receive the same amount of light; however, some are colorful and some are not. At the depth pictured the corals are getting less light in the 420nm range, the deeper they are the more light in the blue range they are getting (albeit less par).

Take these naturally colorful corals and flood them with high intensity blue spectrum light matched with bright 10k-20k halides, throw in excellent water conditions in regards to low nutrient saturation and what do you have?

TOTM at reefkeeping mag

Are these corals naturally colorful? I think the ones we choose happen to be. Remember that many of these corals are aqua cultured in the Ocean on big racks, they are then collected and shipped, strange how they show up with great color without having the opportunity to spend some time in a Zeovit tank first.


In regards to the suppliments, ie Potassium,

I agree that it is sometimes ridiculous to spend $30 for a bottle of Potassium. There are alternatives to the more frugal type persons like yourself. Many people are successfully using Potassium chloride from here....


http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails....1&pid=777&at=0

Essentially it is the same thing from what I understand. For those that do the research there are almost always cheaper options without the fancy labels.

Yeps I do. We don't sell any pro biotic systems currently but we may soon.

Keep in mind though that what I said here is my opinion and does not reflect my employer's etc etc.

:lol::mrgreen:

well I am not a big fan of fighting on the internet. Zeo is Zeo like it hate it. I think the point of this thread was to help out Drew with his zeo system. There are so many factors to a reef tank, lights, temp, etc, etc and I think the thread is getting hijacked by us.. Drew if you need help with your system just contact Albert he knows what he is doing and helped me with my system. The biggest change to my lousy start was cleaning and scrubbing out all the hairy goop then things ran a lot smoother.

Once you get in the habit and get things running it goes pretty smoothly even if your lazy like me and miss a few days. When I started zeo I was told flat out that it was no replacement for basic tank care cleaning etc. If you don't have good skills to begin with, then zeo is going to make things worse. If you have the basics down and want to improve your system to your tastes then zeo offers some things. I have seen zeo tanks with brown coral and I have seen some people with zeo tanks with pastels. Same with systems with out. I have established a tank that is very stable and looks the way I want it. I used zeo to get it that way. Are there other ways to do it I am sure there is, but for me zeo has paid off.

Who said anyone was fighting, this is good conversation! :mrgreen:

Ditto! This kind of discussion/debate is awesome!


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...thisthread.jpg

I agree, learning lots here.

Question for the zeo gurus, are there any deterministic tells that signal you're out of phase 1? I've been dosing like I'm in phase 1 for 3-4 months now, I'm not sure what to look for to tell me I can start cutting back? Or do you just do it (cut back) and see where things lie? I'm for both a rock and carbon changeout. My NO3 is 5.0ppm...

Please don't take offence but it sounds like you've never been scuba diving on a reef before. As luck would have it I just got back from a holiday last night where I was diving and some of the sps colours I witnessed were absolutely amazing. That said not every sps is a bright colour but the most popular ones in the hobby are and zeo tanks can help them achieve their full potential. It's easy to keep a coral brown and still healthy but I personally enjoy a more colourful look. Now to address your point of "natural", since most of us have corals from many parts of the world together in a glass cage that would not be found together in nature the only way to get a true "natural" look would be to have a geographic specific tank. That goes for fish too.
I personally don't use zeo but I do carbon dose with pretty good results and I can tell you the principle behind them works. Yes you can achieve very good results without it but you can achieve even better results with it. I have tried many things and I'm not afraid to experiment and I can attest to the validity of zeo & carbon dosing. As mentioned it's not for everyone but since I tend to over stock I would have nitrate/phosphate problems without it. For me the hobby goes beyond just watching the tank, I enjoy the nuts & bolts of what makes what work, identification, propagation, photography, etc. One of the things that makes this hobby so great is there really is something for everyone at every level and you can taylor it to your own personal preferences.:biggrin:

No I haven't ever been diving, still on the to do list.

There's no question that some corals have amazing pigments in the wild. What I was saying is that it is more likely for them to have brown or at least more muted colours. It seems to me that the bright pigments you can get with a ULN system seem to be one of the leading reasons people try it out. As both Greg and Oceanic pointed out brightly pigmented corals are over represented in the hobby compared to any wild reef patch because those are the ones selected for collection and mariculture. Nothing wrong with that of course. Additionally everyone is trying to tailor their systems to encourage these pigments to develop further. Again there's nothing wrong with that, it's very attractive.

What gets me is when people charaterize this setup as "natural", it's just not. The meaning of natural has been so twisted when used to market products in every aspect of our lives, not just the hobby and it bothers me. Like Greg pointed out there's nothing natural about what we are doing with fish and corals in the first place. People read natural and they think it must be a simple or at least easy to manage system.

I'm not against Zeovit, I'm against bullsh*t. :)

If you look at Drew's original issues through my patented anti-bullsh*t filter it frames the problem he is having differently. What he's trying to do is establish and grow bacteria cultures to eliminate nutrients he doesn't want without any other things like cyano getting a hold of these nutrients and doing things we don't want with them. This would be tricky to do in a sterile petri dish but instead we're doing it in a closed system with god know what else growing in it and a limited ability to both measure and control the concentrations the nutrients involved. There may be too much of something, to little of something else etc.

I think that pretending that we have a clear, full understanding of how these things work, what factors influence them and what they really accomplish in the end leads to frustrations like Drew initially expressed. It's not a clear, simple or "natural" thing. Every system is different and therefore every implementation of the system must take into account these differences, many of which we can't measure or control very well. I would suggest that if Drew had looked at his problem from that point of view initially he wouldn't have been so frustrated.

Who knows maybe I am just an overly pedantic net troll but it is my natural behavior so it must be good right?
:p

Drew,
Getting back to your original issue. Cyano and other bacterias out competing your ZeoBac
That is what I believe to be your correct issue.
First if you are using anything other than the basic 4 stop.
Second, increase your Zeobac, if you are dosing every 3 day dose ever other day. Dose 1/2 your Bac dosage of ZEOFood7 at the same time as your Bac.
I would also dose 0.5ml twice a day of ZEOStar2 daily

Zeo is not an overnight solution and in established tanks can take as long as 6 months


I will not get into a debate on Zeo or what it does to corals. I have done my research and come to my own conclusions. I simply want to help.

J

starting a tank fresh on a probiotic product is different from converting an existing one to a zero nutrient system. the problem is there'll be a longer time (and of course $$) investment before results happen.

Like albert said, throttle back your reactor and dose a little less than recommended. Running the reactor at a trickle works wonders. It's very hard to have too little flow through the reactor but very easy to have too much. Zeostart's the most likely of the basic 3 to cause algae and it may take up to 3 months for proper results to surface.

I don't recommend running phosphate media while using the zeovit because it'll interfere with the bacterial chain. There are about 40 common (and many more uncommon) nitrifying/denitrifying bacterial strains and these probiotic products rely on various strains working in a chain. Think assembly line. If one of those workers isn't present then the rest of the job doesn't get done. Running phosphate media will only hinder the performance of the system.

I agree that probiotic products are the key to getting impossible colours and good tank husbandry is required along with these systems. They aren't crutches. Everyone has their once a year "disaster" and maybe your tank's having it's disaster at the same time you decided to start zeovit. I think it's just coincidence.

Hang in there man! Things'll turn out! At least we're not in a hobby like breeding frontosa where you'll have to raise your fish for 4 years to HOPEFULLY have a breeding family ;)

Good gravy. Who would have a hobby like that?! :p

I switched the rocks out on mine last night as I was overdue for a changeout anyhow. I cranked the flow way back on the reactor (to a slow trickle). One thing that caught me off guard, wow, does that ever put out a lot of heat. I'm tempted to swap out the pump to something else. It raised my tank temp 3 degrees F, the only thing I changed was that I cranked the flow WAY back last night (because of the rock changeout) so I think it might be the Sedra on the reactor that's behind the sudden jump.

Hello,

I'm going to be starting Zeovit in a few days. Great thread. A good eye opener to pay attention to the system. Been reading up and asking questions through other various resources. One question I haven't asked of anyone yet. That being about the flow rate and the adjustment of. Looking to get an idea of how folks know they are at, say, 50-75 gph, or whatever. Educated guesswork? A certain postion of the handle? Timing it into a bucket for 1 minute? (I imagine the latter method being somewhat difficult, what with the reactor in the sump).

Thanx much,

I just guessed with mine but you could time it into a measuring cup or something smaller. My sump compartment is pretty cramped so hopefully I have it in the ballpark (its pretty dang slow).

Ya, just guessed.

Basically if you have a 300GPH pump you then guess at the ball valve handle position 1/2 closed whould put you at 150GPH 3/4 closed would be 75GPH

J

when is some one going to make an automated Zeo system like the balling method.. cuz untill then it is way to much work for us who just want to enjoy our tanks with a couple hours of cleaning every two weeks.

Steve

It seems like you've got to add a lot of stuff in drips and drabs and not everything goes in on a regular daily basis. Plus you've got to keep an eye on that zeo reactor. With enough dosing pumps and some programming it might be possible, but it wouldn't be simple that's for sure.

You have a tank?? :)

I have to admit, I've missed a day here and there of my tweaking and twisting...

I didn't think it was that easy because, well, it's a ball and the hole in the ball has a curved edge and...ya, that. In other words, isn't it disproportional (is that a word?) because of the spherical properties of the hole? I wouldn't even begin to pretend I know how to calculate it, but I digress. If other folks are having success guessing, that's what I'll do to. I like the trickle description. That helps.

Thanx and cheers,

Does anyone have a link for a concise explanation of the Zeovit system including a description of it methods and the costs involved both startup costs and ongoing maintenance costs?

actualy have 3 running now... again. and soon 4 :neutral:

Steve