Hi Wendell,

What would you suggest as a potential solution? Assuming that there is one, of course, perhaps there is not. But working on the premiss that we would like a sustainable hobby so that we can still enjoy our hobby in 2010 and 2020 and beyond ... what should we do? Eliminate all wild-caught livestock (maybe that will happen anyways?) and the only livestock is captive-prop? I admit I like the sounds of that, although it probably restricts the available diversity quite a bit (perhaps a small price to pay? I don't know.)

MAC (Marine Aquarium Council) is a possible solution, even with it's faults. Some are being addressed at the moment, but there is still a long way to go.

An important factor in all of this is the informed hobbiest. This thread is a perfect example.Putting pressure on LFS and wholesale companies, to not carry items that are difficult/impossible to keep is a start. How about implementing an USL (Unsuitable Species List) for wholesale/LFS to not purchase?

Many captive bred/raised items are available. Unfortunately on the whole these items are more expensive than wild caught. A poll was taken a while ago about this topic and the majority of posters to this board said they would buy CB items even at a premium. This is not the case for the majority of the hobbiest as price ,which was even stated as a major factor for purchases in a previous posting, is the single biggest factor on what they buy and where they buy it.

Who knows?

One thing to keep in mind as far as hard to keep animals is that some times if the shipper is out of one thing, they ship another. I know my favorite LFS grumbles about that with some of the livestock they get. They order something, perhaps small emperor angels.. (an example nothing more) and they get HUGE ones, the guy who runs the marine section will tell people don't buy it, its going to die, unless I can get it to eat. I guess that is an example to of why captive bred fish are better. As I read through this thread I have come to the realization that my pocket book shouldn't be as much a factor in my purchases as it has been.

On the bright side, I am still looking for a source for affordable captive bred seahorses. I may just have to go to Blaine and have them shipped there.

An important factor in all of this is the informed hobbiest. This thread is a perfect example.Putting pressure on LFS and wholesale companies, to not carry items that are difficult/impossible to keep is a start. How about implementing an USL (Unsuitable Species List) for wholesale/LFS to not purchase?

Wow a chance post and it is going 3 pages with excellent comments from all and no flames
Saltcreep the idea that we can make a difference and put pressure on our suppliers to get cyanide free fish and stop importing and selling fish on a USL is great. It will benefit everyone because we can get healthier fish. New reefers benefit because they wont get stuck with impossible to keep species and cyanide fish.
We can all start right now by ASKING where it came from right after we ask to see it eating.
I would be really interested in the owners of LFS and online stores reaction to these informed reefer questions.

BCOG - A simple solution for your LFS, WRT substitutions, is to simply tell the supplier to stop sending substitutions or they will stop purchasing from them. Or, ask them to only substitute with items they have ordered. Simple solutions. When push comes to shove the almighty dollar speaks for itself.

After a blank stare from the Manager at my favorite LFS it dawned on me, they didn't say they get cyanide caught fish. An employee at another.. (reputable) store said my favorite ONLY sells cyanide caught fish. When I spoke to the manager today he had a good laugh and then accused me of hiding my blonde roots.... (no offence to any blondes)

My favorite fish store uses the same supplier(s) for their fish as the reputable shop we all love, however it was one of the employees not a manager at the reputable shop that told me about the cyanide caught fish are being sold at my favorite LFS. When I went down stairs to talk to the guy who runs the marine section he almost kicked me out when I asked if he sells cyanide caught fish. Some fancy talking and foot work and he calmed down.

Rumours are easy to spread and start, Hey did you hear, Big Al's buys ****** from ****** and they are known for ******* .

My mistake folks I got confused, I guess I talked to one to many people. So I would like to take this opportunity to say my LFS still is my favorite, strangely enough when the last fellow who ran the marine section left, the prices of the fish went up... I didn't make the connection.

Powder Blues
 

I do agree that such hard to keep fish such as powder blue's should not be sold to a beginner hobbyiest. However! I don't know how many reefers know that ordering fish is no simple task. It's all about availability.
Let's say your a store owner for example, and a customer begs you to order him/her a yellow tang. Maybe after a few weeks of being faxed availability list, you finally see yellow tangs on the list. So you order one for that patient customer and three more for stock. With most suppliers, it's sometimes luck of the draw if you get exactly what you ordered. So what happens if the supplier you faxed back your order too is all out of stock of yellow tangs now-well too late! Most times they will substitute powder blue or another type of tang for the yellow tangs, or manderian gobbies for yellow watchmen gobbies for another example-that's just the way it is!

We should not be so harsh on our LFS :( as it's not there fault most of the time-it's the suppliers. That's why it's so hard for stores to find a really good supplier. If I was a store owner I would not want to order a whole bunch of fish that nobody wants to buy-but what happens when my supplier substitutes them by mistake or just wants to get them on his/her hands- then I'm stuck selling them at a sale price because that's all I can do. No, I can't send them back so I have to try and sell them. If you tell your supplier to stop sending you powder blues, then who nows, maybe you will never get sent another tang ever again or he might just add more to your next shippment. So what I'm saying is "it's really really hard for a LFS sometimes to have control over what they recieve in there shippments".

just my opinion, peace all :D
cheers, Rich

s/t fishy.
Thanks for your opinion but I agree with Saltcreep.
The buyer is the boss. If the LFS tells the wholesaler no substitutions and they do it the LFS should not be forced to accept it. They should refuse to pay.
We are not talking about substituting one article for another of similar value.
We are talking about substituting a live animal that no body wants and IMO that simply is not acceptable.

When we first got into the hobby, we had an informed person at an LFS. He ordered in for us. He ordered in our LTA, as a matter of fact, which is still here. He did not order in four, just one....

BCOG, is the LFS you speak of where we ran into you? Whose the guy in there who might have been overheard telling newbies "well, everything dies sometime..."

Naesco - all I'm tryiny to say is that it's not always up to the boss(LFS), sometimes s#it happens. S#it happened with the Powder Blue Tangs as well, because I know of three stores that I went to on the weekend that all had Powder Blue Tangs, only one of these stores ordered these fish. One store told me they were overshipped, another told me it was a supplier's mistake, and the last told me that it was suppliers way of selling off fish that were brought in by mistake.

So, the bottom line is, as long as there are fish stores and aquarist then there is bound to be mistakes sometimes. Fish stores and there suppliers are not perfect, and we all make mistakes sometime. I can see writting a bad post about a store if there are making such actions a habbit. However, the case with J&L for example should not be treated to harsh if they don't make a habbit of such actions. Post like this can cause damage for a store, for which the LFS may have been completly not in the wrong.

just my two cents-not worth much :wink:

ST/ fishy
IMO all the posts here have been excellent. No flames.
I dont think for one moment that J&L has been harmed by these postings.
I think they learned from them though.
Hopefully others have as well.

naesco wrotenaesco wroteIMO- a comment like that is harmful!
sumpfinfishe

S/T fishy
Its the old BB typed comment.
How about We reefers have a high opinion of J&L. We would not expect them to buy powder blue tangs on the cheap, and dump them on unsuspecting reefers.

I know what your saying naesco :wink: , I just think that sometimes these post can damage a store's reputation even if they don't read that strong. It's the implacations or expectations that sometimes do more harm.

cheers, Rich :D

Right S/T fishy
The moral for all LFS and online stores is don't put yourself in a position to do anything that gives you anything :D but positive comments from all of the members of this and other boards.

Naesco, when are you going to share some pics of your tanks...? You sound like you must have wonderful tang tanks and I am sure everyone would be very interested in seeing them and the conditions you try to emulate for them.

Jeff

Emily, I am surprised by what you say was said, dissapointed more than that. I think I know who would say that.... and he probably got reamed for saying it if his brother overheard him.... If he didn't I will speak to Eric tomorrow and let him know that when stupid stuff like that is said, it hurts their reputation when experienced folks overhear it. It isn't a perfect store by any means.... The lady who now runs it does so as a business, not as a service, the manager is more service oriented but stupid stuff still happens.

I will add my 2 cents here. The online store we have like Salwater connection and J&L are the 2 best store I know

Yes there maybe some place for improve and I agree one should not sell powder blue in special but you should never forget that those two store are IMO the best of the best and we should very happy to have them

IMO notting could compare to those store for service,quality and the price. fish coral,and dry good from J&L and SWC are 1/2 and sometime 1/3 the price of wath I can find here and in beter shape so yes there a place for improve but people should not forget they already do a realy great job :mrgreen:

agreed. i haven't purchased livestock yet, but for dry goods, my dealings with J&L and SWC have been very smooth and satisfactory. along with aquarium illusions in edmonton, i plan to make them my chief sources for livestock. at least they're not like some other shops we know, that sell aptasia for $30 a pop. :rolleyes:

$30.00 a pop for aiptasia. I'm rich!

there are two chain shops in edmonton that sell them, as curliqueue anemones. of course i'm not positive it's actually aptasia, but it looks the same, is just as harmful, and apparently spreads just as fast. some kind of pest anemone.

then there's the LFS in lacombe, ab, that sells a yellow tang for $60 and very much dead "live" rock for about $20/lb. and figures it's impossible to do a marine tank smaller than 40 gallons :rolleyes:

So, I was at J & L, this after noon and bought some Seahorses, just two thats all they had left. They said most of the people who bought them are beginners so they didn't expect a lot of success from these people. Oddly enough they say they never order Seahorses they just get them with their shipments, the seahorses are Mac certified so they know they were net caught.. (can't imagine it is difficult to do) so..... my question is, alot of people say no one should support a fish store that lets their suppliers substitute things or ship them things that they wouldn't normally order....Is anyone going to stop shopping at J&L?... didn't think so

BTW Indonesia has lost it's cites permit, the permit expired and will not be renewed, so brace yourself I imagine the prices of fish are going to go up.

ah, mac certification, that's a whole other ballgame. :rolleyes:

i was reading in the latest national geographic that while chiru (deer-like mammals from tibet) are protected under chinese law, chinese military men and politicians have been arrested for poaching them. how do we know mac is doing what they say they are doing?

i don't think it would be easy to stop livestock that wasn't ordered from coming in, but couldn't J&L avoid selling something like seahorses to less-experienced aquarists? i realize they've got a bottom line to worry about, but it would be nice if they could just say "no" :confused:

I sure would hope they could do that, but frankly, they can't ask for a resume before they sell hard to keep species... its a hard call... I figure even with out the Mac certification seahorses should be easy to catch, UNLESS they are a by catch of another method...

I don't mean to be the devils advocate here, just making a statement that even J&L gets stuff they don't order and they sell it to people who have $$... you would almost think they are running a business or something...

Funny how they can be MAC certified when J&L aren't even certified themselves???

:biggrin: i hear ya. gotta make money somehow right :neutral:

My understanding is that they are certified... hmm... velllly intellesting... (as the old german soldier used to say on laugh in)

TeeVee, MAC certification is for the wholesalers and collectors as far as I know. The idea is for retailers to sell MAC certified fish.

Indonesia has not lost it's CITIES permit. It has not reissued and it must not be high on the priority list for their gov't. It wouldn't be a first time that there's been a problem with CITIES.

that was saltcreep who was questioning that :smile:

I was told that it wont be renewed because of over fishing etc....

MAC certification is for all involved in the industry, from collector to retailer. For a retailer to sell fish as MAC certified, first the retailer has to be certified. Next they have to have a supplier who is MAC certified. The fish themselves have to be certified all the way through the supply chain and meet the mortality requirements to become certified at a retailer. To my knowledge no retailers are certified in Canada yet.

Saltcreep is right. MAC includes the LFS and online stores.
Yes but Coast Mountain which is a wholesaler in Vancouver is. As long as we ensure that the fish we buy come from them we know we are getting cyanide free fish. Hopefully other wholesalers including the LFS will follow.
How do we know?
Just ask the LFS. Dont be afraid. They wont bite off your head. :cool:

here's an interesting question... has anyone here actually tried to keep a powder blue? what luck did you have with it (no i am not considering one, just wondering).

and how can they prove that the fish are cyanide free when MAC doesent test for cyanide at this time?

Steve

quote]

and how can they prove that the fish are cyanide free when MAC doesent test for cyanide at this time?

Steve[/quote]

All MAC certified fish are not cyanid caught.
Random cyanide testing will ensure that no one on the chain cheats.
MAC may have reinstituted the tests already. We will find out tonight.

I tried a powder blue a couple of times. The fish up an died witin 9 months for no apparent reason. I thought it was me until I read on reefcentral and reefs org posts by experienced reefers with the same results. Some LFS posted that they no longer sell them for the same reason.
"I have a sick powder blue tang" is the most common sick fish post that I have observed on those boards as well.
Having said that some reefers have kept them alive for some time :confused:

J&L told me that Mac certified meant I could ask them to find out exactly where the fish was caught and by which collector, including the day it was caught, as well as to guarantee that the fish was net caught.

So whats this about they may be starting the testing again did they stop random testing? Who does the testing?

from the start and up to about 2 months ago no one does the testing, MAC decided that the cyanide testing wasn;t importand when compared to the other idems they were trying to do. So basicly they are relying on the colectors being honest.

MAC cirtification is not a real guarentee yet (I personaly would love to see it work) but there is problems with the testing and it hasn't as of yet been done by MAC.

Personaly I have not heard of any importers being MAC certified yet, as most are against it, so it is all find and dandy to get MAC certified fish to the importers but will they be kept seperate from non cirtified fish? Especialy at a non certified place? Personay the only way I could ever see MAC working is if the catcher, exporter, impoter, and store delt with 100% MAC certified and nothing else. as soon as one of thease legs is missing ther eis no proof that the fish you got is MAC certified or if it has been substuted to make more money.

The Idea of MAC is good but the way they have been going about it is not.. unless there have been some big changes in the last 2 months I would question any store that says they are selling MAC certified fish as how they could be ceritfied cyanide free with no randome testing.

Is something going on tonight Naesco?

Steve

Well, some have already responded with their experiences, and imo you will find that most often these are the same people hating to see these fish in the hands of a newbie, let alone an experienced reefer.

I'll add my experience, I have never in my life seen ick like that. (Well, an achilles was a close second.....) I tried a powder blue as a relative newbie to the hobby. As many do. :sad: And, no, I did not QT. (However, I don't think ALL fish need quarantine, or necessarily benefit from it....but that is an aside...)

This stuff isn't always about the experienced reefer ....it's about the newbie ...and at least TRYING to save them the same loss experiences, whether they feel that $$wise or whatever works....

It's a good point tho teevee......I have witnessed a powder blue die. If I had a 300g or more that was years old....yeah, I might order one in. :confused:

At 6pm Vancouver timee on reefs org , chat #reef, there is a discussion about MAC. Brandt who is the MASNA President just got back from the Phillippines.

Coast Mountain Aquatics is the first and only certified company in Canada to date.

The entire premise of being MAC certified is akin to being ISO certified. It is not just about cyanide free fish but that every aspect of your business meets a certain level of professionalism (for the lack of a better word). Yes, having cyanide free fish is a major factor in the process but so is the ability to track the certified fish through proper record keeping and segregation of fish.

There is a certain level of trust placed with a MAC certified company. The process of performing post audits and random cyanide testing at exporters' facilities would definitely assist with keeping people honest. This is like having the possibility of having your taxes audited as an incentive for doing them properly.

If a retailer or importer is not certified by MAC then none of the fish they can't sell any fish as MAC certified, even if it comes from a MAC certified supplier.