Interesting. I never understood the rationale behind the assumption that pet store dogs came from these puppy mills or backyard breeders. Thanks, Brad.

The last few times I've been to these big pet stores, they have dogs in two categories: puppies for sale, and rescued adult animals (they usually have a typed up story behind the animal--where it was found, age, temperment, etc.) I don't see any harm in the latter. Kind of a satellite SPCA...sort of?

I'm curious then, since I'm mostly a cat lover, where do the cats come from, and do cats have the same genetic issues as the dogs do? What about the birds and fish? Reptiles, etc.

We lika ya Drew, so we won't hold that against you :)

I'm not sure of cats, but I suspect that if PB cats may be in th esame position as dogs. Again, most pet stores only sell gray cats or orange cats, again from often unexpected/wanted litters. They are given to the store for free and sold at a nominal cost. Purebreds again suffer the same fate as dogs. Professional Maine Coon breeders do not sell to pet stores and vice versa.
Birds from stores are mostly wild caught, although the occasional hand fed locally bred birds do make it to the pet stores, mostly from hobbyists that had a try at breeding. Not the same game as dogs and cats.

Here is a typical description on buying puppies. This comes from a site I'm currently reading on BCs, but is applicable to all breeds;

"Where should I get my dog?

There are several options, some good, others not so good. If you choose to get an adult dog, you can get one from a shelter, from a Border Collie rescue organization, or from a breeder who is looking for a home for an adult Border Collie. If you decide to get a puppy, you should do some research and find a breeder with a good reputation. Do not buy a Border Collie puppy from a pet store. Although these puppies are adorable, they are generally from puppy mills and are incredibly overpriced. Most people don't realize that they can usually buy a very well-bred, well-socialized, pet-quality puppy with exceptional guarantees from a reputable breeder for less money than they can buy a puppy from a pet store. Pet store puppies have usually been bred for profit with little consideration given to long-term health. They are often prone to many problems, such as epilepsy, hip and joint problems, and early blindness. They are also usually poorly socialized, which means they can grow up to be timid, fearful dogs. Do not even buy from pet stores advertising that their animals are not from puppy mills: no reputable breeder would ever sell puppies to a pet store! You will often encounter the same problems with health and socialization with puppies sold through ads in the newspaper. The best way to find a good breeder is by asking people who already own healthy Border Collies with good temperaments."

My ex-wife bred her rottie to make a few bucks from pups. The pups are about 4 years old now, over half of them have hip problems and most of the buyers have called complaining about various other health issues. She solves these issues by hanging up the phone....

I bought an Akita 14 years ago from a reputable breeder for less than the backyard rotties went for. The breeder was there for questions and concerns my dog's entire life, and was even supportive after my dog passed away. If I had encountered genetic health issues, I had a replacement/money back gaurantee...

Hey if you are looking for an agility dog have you looked into Aussies?
This is our 2nd one and i can honestly say for agility they are awsome. The guy we currently have we got from a breeder near Edmonton who received mom and dad from a breeder in San Diego. Very we'll built dogs. Great agility and very obidient right from the get go.All hips,eyes and elbows are checked and cleared before being sold and they also have a lifetime/replacement medical paid for etc.

And trully he is adorable:)
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...rSummer136.jpg


But on the flip side to all of that...I have a CKC registered Golden retriever that we drove to Seattle for....Parents had been checked for everything under the sun and sure enough was diagnosed at 6months for hip dysplasia. And 6 months is very early to see this in a dog. So it is to say that even if you test for it and mom and dad don't have it doesn't mean that they won't get it. It all depends on what breed you choose and what they're breed is pre disposed to.

[quote=findingnemo1;303596]Hey if you are looking for an agility dog have you looked into Aussies?
This is our 2nd one and i can honestly say for agility they are awsome. The guy we currently have we got from a breeder near Edmonton who received mom and dad from a breeder in San Diego. Very we'll built dogs. Great agility and very obidient right from the get go.All hips,eyes and elbows are checked and cleared before being sold and they also have a lifetime/replacement medical paid for etc.

And trully he is adorable:)

Ya, I had thought about an ACD, but recent exposure to a couple of red BCs has swayed me in that direction. I have to go with a red because my girlfriend's flyball team has about a million black and whites, and I have trouble telling them apart!!

So reef_raf, by your rational, no matter the caliber of a dog breeder and the amount of care the put into producing healthy, happy puppies conforming to breed standards, if they sold thier litter to a pet store they would cease to be a reputable breeder? This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?

Some pet stores may not be paying as much as you would from a reputable breeder, but some do. When you look at the pricing of puppies in *edit*, it should be very evident from an assumption on the markup that the prices this company is paying is the same as what Jimbo would be paying from a breeder.

It also does not make much sense for a company to be adopting puppy milled dogs. Would this not cost much more in the long run. If a pet store was to purchase puppies from a reputable source they would see much less health warrenty problems. This simply makes sense.

Well I never said all backyard breedings were good :razz:.
On the flip side of the coin I have a rottie that comes in for a bath every 4 weeks who came from a very reputable breeder who even refused to sell the puppy unless it was fed exclusively raw (I don't agree with that but it shows concern on the breeders part) and the poor dog has the worst case of hip displasia I have ever seen (stage 4?). It is so bad it started showing up before the dog was a year old ( normally a dog is full grown before it even gets tested)

Last I checked, neither *edit* offer ANY warranty on cats or dogs. Their health warranty was limited to birds, small animals and reptiles, and even that warranty was limited to 14 days from the date of purchase. The cost of accepting dogs (or cats) from a puppy (or kitten) mill is much cheaper than accepting dogs (or cats) from a breeder. Breeders want to guarantee their animals will be well taken care of. That's why the good breeders will actually ask YOU questions as well as answering any questions you may have from them. So yes, it does (to me at least) make sense that pet stores buy from mills. The animals are cheaper, are more unwanted that from breeders. Most mill animals are given to pet stores due to "wrong color" or "too small" or "not friendly enough" to be kept.

My aunt worked at *edit* in Manitoba for 15 years and those are the reasons they were often given animals. As someone said previously, orange and grey kittens are most common at petstores. Why? Because they're not "special" enough colors. She finally quit when they refused to stop supporting mills. Even their birds come from mills. Or I guess, large mass aviaries would be the right term.

When I considered getting a ragdoll kitten, *edit* was asking $1200 for a 6 week old. Kittens aren't supposed to be weaned from their mothers until 8-12 weeks of age. A breeder I looked into was asking a $600 adoption fee, which included all vet checks, first shots, deworming, a temporary license (I think it was 3 months?), and the cost of spaying/neutering (otherwise they make you sign a contract stating you will not breed your intact animal for fear of legal repurcussions). Plus the breeder would not let the kitten go until s/he was 12 weeks of age (3 months). Half the cost through the breeder than I would have paid through *edit*.

Most health problems arise in the later years of life. Petstores tend to sell puppies or kittens. Not older adults, aside from *edit* rescues. But generally those have written information stating if anything is wrong with them and how *edit* came to aquire them.

Also, did you know that at *edit*, you can haggle the prices down? If they paid $600 for a dog from a breeder, do you think they'd haggle the price down? All it took was for me to go back with my information from the breeder with all the costs and *edit* was "willing" to "let it go" for $500.

Wow. What a great store, they obviously cared so much about their animals. :rolleyes:

So if I have hip dysplasia, what does that say about dear old mom and dad? :surprise: Damn, I knew they were shady.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hmm
 

It seems to me that this thread is going the wrong way.
What do you think about seeing a three legged pup for sale ?

I have reported them to the Humane Society. I just hope they will finally be shut down.
It was stated that someone wanted to know what was thought about selling a three legged dog.

Now I am not trying to argue with all of the statements. I have agreed that "puppy mills" are horrible and should not be allowed to operate. I also stated that I support anybody who can prove that this is where they come from. I know you may not have a video showing this but it is still required to show proof of this. She has written a letter to the Humane Society..Great Has she written a letter to the head office of the pet store? Has she contacted anybody else in the company to voice a complaint with them and what has been their response? We are all very quick to make desicions sometimes without knowing all the facts. This includes surfing the net and basing our opinions on what is on the monitor. I agree that most dogs should be bought from reputable breeders, if you are going for a purebred dog. There isn't one breeder I have seen on either the CKC or the AKC that breeds mixbreed dogs. I have seen many of these dogs in shelters and in the local papers and in pet stores. Where do you draw the line. Do you pass a law stating that all purebred dogs come from breeders only? Do you prosecute anybody who sells a dog privately and is not registered with a kennel club?
My family has been in the legal field for many years and I have seen all kinds of things good+bad with the way our legal system is. Do you all remember the football player who was charged with breeding dogs for fighting and if they didnt perform he killed them. Do you all remeber the parrots somebody tried to smuggle across the border in a suitcase and 75% of the bird were dead. What about the illegal smuggling of fish and corals that are harvested and brought in the country every year. How do you guarantee the fish you bought is legal? 100% legal...It was pointed out to me by a friend who stated that if you walked into a room and saw a person holding a smoking gun and a body on the floor do you assume that he is guilty of murder? Most people jump to that conclussion. However it could have many possibilties. The shooting could have been self defence, the gun could have gone off accidently, it could be premeditated murder, amongst a few other possible things as well. I will not jump to any conclussion until I have all the facts. All breeders are not good and all pet stores are not bad. So EmilyB I hope you do shut this place down if it is doing what you say it is. Reef raf I hope you understand I read a lot of articles on the internet as well, I currently own 2 dogs and 2 cats who are very much a part of the family. As for a money back guarantee from your breeder for any genetic defects...not all breeders offer that type of clause in a bill of sale. I dont support any of these large franchise pet stores but I do have to take a bit of the Devil's advocate role here because I have run into good and bad in all walks of life. We Canadians seem to be very apethetic sometimes when it comes to letting corporations run business's like they own the world. But really folks, when was the last time you wrote or gathered a letter of complaint or a petition and sent it to your local MLA. When was the last time anybody said I wont drive my car to work because the oil companies are ripping us off. You get the idea. If the majority of the people in this country united against these industries you might see something done. Same thing with tax's too... bottom line is that if you started a petition and educated the people on all their policies do you think that "*edit* would change?? Now for the forgotten issue. If a qualified vet checks out the three legged dog and he is healthy..I would buy him.:biggrin:

Whew, don't you guys have to work at all ? :lol: Didn't I say I was going to write a letter ? What was that, like three hours ago....sheesh.

And in my absence Brad said it better than I would have. Reputable breeders would NEVER sell to a pet store PERIOD. Perhaps you think all MILLS are those miserable god-foresaken places in Quebec. Think again.

I'll let the head office know how pleasant it was watching the three legged pup try to balance on the wire bottom cage.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/where.htm

Great
 

I am at work..One of the perks when you rin your own business..:biggrin:
I hope you understand I am not trying to support any large company like "petland" or a variety of other ones that are out there. But you have to admit its been a fun thread..great reactions,,wish people would get this riled up over other things sometimes. I am not trying to act "stupid" or "dumb" I am well aware where these animals come from for the most part. Proving it can be very difficult sometimes. Just so you know there are breeders that will sell to some pet stores..reputable?? Maybe not, sometimes it is just a case of Mr Smiths Cocker Spaniel jumping a fence and having his way with Mrs Jones Poodle. What do they do with the puppies? Lets not forget the old farm solution sometimes, put them in a sack and throw them in a river. Most people sell them privately or will take them to a pet store. I know it isn't right but what is the solution for these animals? I have seen quite a few mixed breeds for sale in some pet stores,{not the big ones} they are not in cages or walking on wire mesh floors.They are in proper stalls which are clean and well cared for, so what do you do there? In most cases a mixed breed dog is a hardier animal than a purebred. I have had several dogs, purebreds and mixed. Loved them all. I have never had the misfortune of having a dog with genetic issues or serious health issues. Maybe I have been lucky or as I like to believe careful about where and what I buy. I knew Quebec had a reputation but not as a "Mill" capital. I always thought the biggest fault with Quebec was their football and hockey team..:lol: :lol: By the way the dog I had with 3 legs {lost his leg in a car accident}lived until he was 12 and was a fantastic dog.

Bark bark bark bark! Woof woof. Snuffle? Bark bark bark bark bark bark bark!

But then again a reg. Breeder Cant Sell reg. Pups to a shop if the CKC found out OUCH thats a bad slap on the hands

Yes, exactly. Now you're getting my point. Good breeders do not sell to pet shops, they just don't. People sell to pet shops to maximize investment over time. The breeder I'm trying to buy from wants 20 questions answered, pics of my yard, etc, before she'll let me have a pup. This kind of breeder does not sell a box of puppies to a store.

Tony, I just can't agree with that statement...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh
 

:smile: :smile: :lol: :lol: :lol: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :razz: :razz:

Agreed. Totally uncalled for. Mods these days.

Cudo's
 

Emily, Great thread, If anything good was to come, look at all the hits in such a short time. Maybe with all the interest people will be less inclined for a spur of the moment purchase from anywhere? Just so you know.. stirring the pot is a good thing sometimes..:biggrin:

LOL, Tony you add way to much humor to my day. Everyone else is writing a whole essay and throwing so much emotion into there posts and you respond in Dog/Cat Speak. Got to comment also dsaundry I have yet to come across someone with such an amazing talent for supporting there view points.

Now as far as the topic goes I worked at the Pet store in question for a total of a year and a half and in my personal view they absolutely DO NOT purchase from Puppy mills, breeders have to apply to sell there dogs and this store actually sends a trained person out to assess and qualify the operation. If the test fails the breeder is black listed and none of the stores can bring in dogs from that person. Now as one of these "highly unpaid and untrained" staff members It was my job to complete a check list from start to finish (Believe me when I say allot of people lost there job for not adhering to this) and guarantee that the animal is being sent to a proper home.

Now as far as purchasing from a Breeder compared to a store goes I'm going to argue the store is a better solution. When you purchase from a breeder you get the dog(Its basic needs are met how?). When you purchase from a Pet store such as the one in question you get the dog and the supplies (Plus the TRAINED KNOWLEDGE BEHIND IT). Also I don't think that allot of people actually know this but the store in question (I have seen this done many a time) can actually refuse sale if the animal is not being sent home to the proper house or with the proper equipment. Everyone's sitting here arguing about the fact that these animals are being treated horribly in the Pet store but no one is considering that the dog will be in the Pet store for 1-2 weeks but at your house for the rest of there life time. That's why the store in question has the logo "Pets for Life" and there motto is to match the right person with the right animal and meet the needs of both.

Levi Morgan

Oh snap! That's pretty interesting, Levi.

Love to debate sometimes.
 

Love debating sometimes. It exercises the mind and creates good conversation most of the time..:biggrin:

I disagree. Debating is the product of a lazy mind and only results in bad conversation.

I failed miserably in debating class, so I won't get into about selling them all that necessary equipment.......:wink:

*Sigh* I'm finally home and have the time to respond properly. I volunteer for an animal rescue society called "Second chance animal rescue society" and I would say that a least 5 dogs a year that come though SCARS have to have a leg amputated do to injuries. All of the scars dogs are in foster homes (so no worries they do not have to hop around on a wire bottom) and the three legged dogs are completely normal and can do everything their four legged friends do and they do get adopted out just as much as any other dog.

The puppy mill situations are awful and I'd like to think that most people would not purposely adopt from one. Having dogs stacked in cages never let out except to breed (yes people these dogs live in their pee and poop and usually there is 4-5 cages stacked on top of eachother and guess where their fecees travels, not a pretty sight!) this is not my idea of a well bread animal. I know this because we've rescued animals from places such as this.

We also deal with reserve animals and animals from the pound that are found in very poor conditions. We once had a lady call scars to tell us that there was this awful smell coming out from under her trailer. When Sylvia showed up she crawled under the trailer and found a small hole that 6 puppies fell into. Four were dead (hence the smell) and two were still alive. They died because the hole was just big enough that they couldn't climb out and they ended up starving to death. What's worse is that the owner (of the trailer) didn't care enough to pull them out and try to save them, they only wanted the smell to be gone! This is just a small taste of what scars goes through. :cry:

I got my dog Gulliver from scars. He came to scars because EHS was going to put him down (before ever going up for adoption) because he growled at the animal control officer, heaven forbid the slight possibility of him biting anyone and they be held liable. Gulliver does growl and bark at people coming into our house but he has never attacked anyone and he clams down quickly. Lucky for me one of the people working at the EHS called scars and said they thought he was a nice dog and didn't deserve to die. So one of the girls picked him up and a few days latter I met him and fell in love and adopted him.

I think if your not sure or don't really care about what breed you want then you should adopt from a no kill animal rescue society. If you want a specific breed then take a hard look at the breeder and ask around about them.

For anyone who wants to read about scars or wants links to animal rescue places visit the scars website at www.scarscare.org I will warn people now that the rescue stories are really hard to read (you will need kleenex) and there are pictures. On the "available for adoption page" I believe right now there is one really sad story and picture, so don't say I didn't warn you. There are also "Look at me now" stories about dogs who have been adopted and are doing great.

I'm done now, thanks for reading :biggrin:

The problem with buying a puppy from a pet store is almost No reputable breeder could in good conscious sell to a pet store NOT KNOWING where the puppy was going to end up. Also, selling to a pet store decreases the risk that the puppy's owners are going to be able to get a hold of that breeder when the genetic issues turn up.
That being said, those pet store puppies still need good homes, it's a difficult situation... I guess when you buy one you should just know what you're getting yourself into and GET PET INSURANCE BEFORE issues arise so your *** will be covered ;)

That's my 2cents.

Also: just because it only has 3 legs doesn't mean it won't be a great dog, it doesn't affect them the way it does many people....dogs are a little bit wonderful in that respect :)

Thanks dsaundry.

It's okay, we understand you haven't met good breeders so you wouldn't really know the answer to that. :wink:

A good breeder will be there with you for the lifetime of your dog.

Fishoholic, awesome about SCARS. :mrgreen: There are some really great things coming out of that rescue. We have ARF here around Calgary. I know a guy with a three-legged dog from there, he's actually rescued five from them. :biggrin:

I'm sorry you just turned a perfectly good debate into a personal attack. Do not tell me that I have not met a good breeder because you dont know me for one and for two I have a dog from *edit* and a dog from a highly certified breeder and I have no use for the breeder after but I definantly have a use for *edit*.

Thank-you for that. I could go on and on about some of the horror stories but the thing that keeps you going is the success stories and knowing that every dog deserves a "Fur-ever" (as we like to say) home. We also have adoption days on Saturdays at Taliz in Edmonton (check scars website for more info and times) quite often, in case anyone in Edmonton wants to see some dogs/puppies and sometimes cats too. :biggrin:

I bought my Dog from the S.P.C.A simply because i dont support any pet stores period i do buy fish from there but that is the only exception the animals in the spca come from irresponsible owners who did not think before taking this animal home the animal did not ask to end up in the shelter. the people who breed are there simply to make their wallets fat and dont care if the animal they put in the pet store ever gets a home. the bottom line is Pet stores are there purely for profit the spca will only charge you the amount it costs for them to board an animal. just thinking about this topic makes me so angry i cannot even think oh yeah did i mention that it should not even matter what breed the dog is they all think and feel and only do what you teach them even the most crossbread dog is capable of the most amazing things ive had many dogs in my life and all of them have impressed me with there abillity to learn and not one was pure bred
BTW this is what you can get from the SPCA he is not pure bred by anymeans but he is my best freind
Attachment 2425

Wow. I just have no reply to this. Um, nope, nothing.....

I fostered the pup in question (my children named her Popcorn) and can assure you all, she did not come from a puppy mill, but was more likely rescued from a ditch or garbage dump, and that she was well cared for and loved for the 3 weeks she was at my home. I volunteer for an animal rescue that goes out on a regular basis and rescues animals from ditches, garbage dumps, landfills, kill shelters, even from under outhouses. We don't have facilities, but all our animals go into foster care after being fully vetted. Popcorn was spayed, vaccinated and microchipped at the time of her leg amputation, and then she came to me (with her 3 littermates) for recovery and socialization. Her leg was amputated on the advice of a very supportive vet clinic that we deal with. We ADOPT them out of a supportive pet store, where adoption questionairs are filled out, as they would thru any rescue, and the animals are microchipped, so, despite our best efforts to ensure our animals go to their forever home, if they ever end up in a shelter, they will find their way back to us. We care very much for the animals in our care, and whatever rehabilitation they need, we give it to them. We believe that a 3 legged pup, a blind kitten, or a deaf dog, all deserve a chance at life. If you need to learn more, check out www.petsforlife.ca

Which just goes to show you can never assume anything because we all know what happens when we assume :mrgreen:

Thanks for chiming in and setting the record straight ten cats

I agree all animals deserve a chance at life but supporting a store over the spca is the wrong choice in my opinion. the spca will be there to foster forever, the pet store is there only as long as people are willing to buy that being said that 3 legged dog may wind up in the spca where they dont care if the dog has 3 legs they only care about one thing, finding him a loving home. the pet store will not sell a three legged dog because they consider that puppy to be defective but forget that he requires a family and a chance at life too

I have a pretty long winded reply,Im pretty sure its along the lines of what your holding back .................................................. .................................................. ............................................. these dots will have to suffice .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................................
this is a family board as I recall............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................holy outer space batman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im gona have a beer, my brain hurts.

A friend of mine owns several rental properties, the Red Deer Petland actually phoned him because one of his tenants was in there trying to buy a dog. They asked him a bunch of questions about the house, yard, pet policy, stability of the hopeful pet-owners. In the end the STORE decided that they would be unsuitable dog owners and they were turned down.

I know, it's not quite a breeder running you through a polygraph machine but it's something. The only question I was asked when I bought my Border Collie from a private breeder was if I would pay with cash or cheque.

I have no problem with petland helping adopt out abandoned or abused animals, these poor guys need all the help they can get. I'm not a big fan of the puppy windows though.