I think you edited your post after and added basically what I was saying but in one sentence instead of a paragraph! LOL :lol:

Anymore advice for the closed loop? I think I may just stick to going right to 2" stuff right after the output and then stay at 2". Im just unsure about what to use at each outlet? I don't really want to use loc line...

I have seensome just cut little pipe pieces, heat the end and squish it to create a nozzle. I went Loc Line with mine mainly because this is my first tank, and I dont know exactly how the water should flow and such. so, 7 1/2" loc line nozzles should give me pretty good adjustability......I hope:lol: For almost $100, they better HAHAHA

Yeah I know what you mean! Plumbing is so ridiculously over priced for what it is!

So since I cannot seem to find a 2" Gate Valve in town, you you guys think reducing my overflow return down to 1.5" would be a bad idea? I thought 2" was overkill to begin with, so maybe? I can easily get 1.5" Gate Valves. The return pump is big though (Mag 24) and may need the 2" drains. I really do not know at this point.

The other option would be to scrap the whole herbie thing and do a traditional type overflow and return.

I wouldn't scrap the entire idea just because you are having a difficult time finding a 2" Gate Valve.

Here's an unconventional idea that could help you test the concept. After testing, you might find that a 1.5" Gate valve might be fine.

Take your 2" drain and split it into 2 lines. Put a 1.5" gate valve on one of the lines. Make the 2nd line 1" for a first test. Rejoin the lines back into a single 2" and continue downward toward your sump and fuge. Put union fittings above and below the tees so you can replace it once you figured out how it behaves.

The idea is that the 1" line functions as some restriction, while the 1.5" gate valve controls the total amount of the flow.

Diagram attached.

Actually thats a pretty good idea. I think though I need to just wait and find a Gate Valve. My fish may just have to hang in there for a bit longer! Its really sad to see the Puffers pacing the glass so much:neutral:

Well I have called just about all the plumbing businesses within Vancouver that I could get to (without a car) and cannot find a 2" gate valve! I think I may give a 1.5" gate valve a try. I have two questions though...

1. I used the calculator on RC to figure out that my return pump will be putting out around 1600 GPH after head loss and elbows, ect.

I believe a 1.5" bulkhead is about 1600 GPH. It seems like if I reduce the drain down to 1.5" it may not handle the return pump very well or may be cutting it close. Does this make any sense?

2. Why are these so expensive! Is this normal?

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...ct_ID=pl-gv125

The amount of flow that you can get through any particular pipe is dependent on the head pressure of the water above it. It is actually the reason that Herbie works. I can't tell you how much flow you'll get in your particular situation.

You'll just have to build it to find out!

JL purchases those valves from Corix. Corix sold a 1.5" gate valve to me for $35...(but I was quite a regular customer there!)

For flow amount get in touch with Skimmin on this board.

He's in the process of setting up a tank with a Dart as a return and has been experimenting with Herbies. If not glued up might be able to duplicate your setup for some feedback.

Yeah I do really need to just give it a shot and see how it works for my tank. I have found a 2" Gate Valve from a member here now. New for $20, so a great deal. I feel much better sticking with the 2" drains and valving them back a bit more rather than going with smaller drains. So you were saying to have the primary drain as just a bulkhead right?

Yes, I have been following his build. I think I will have to just give it a shot though and see how the herbie works on my tank. I have not glued anything yet because I want to have all the plumbing including the closed loop dry fitted first, so people can look at it and give me advice.

That's right. The primary drain (with the gate valve on it) is just a bulkhead on the bottom of the overflow. The emergency drain has a standpipe.

When you first turn it on, water should fall right to the bottom of the overflow box and go out the primary drain. As you close off the valve, you'll hit a point where the water level in the overflow box starts to rise. You want to dial up the water level as high as possible, short of the emergency drain.

My overflow boxes are only 12" deep. I found that I need to keep the water at least 6+" deep to prevent air bubbles being drawn down into the primary when the water falls into the overflow.

Ok that makes sense. So for water testing, I should start with the gate valve open completely and fire up the return pump and then start to close off the valve? Seems like a pretty good chance for a bit of an overflow until you get it dial in perfectly. How long did it take for you to set it? Would you also start by approximating how much flow you want to go to the refugium before you turn on the return pump? Does that make any sense? I guess I am trying to figure out how to get both herbies working together. Im guessing just a lot of adjusting until it works.

I have 4 separate Herbie overflows in my system and they are all inter-related. Any change to any of them affects the others.

Yes, start up with the gate valve wide open. It will be noisy and the water level in the overflow box will be right on the bottom. That will prove to you that you've designed with excess capacity.

Next test: Shut the gate valve 100% closed. This will test your emergency overflow. This is the test that will make you nervous as the overflow water level rises up to that emergency level. You need to know for sure that the emergency overflow can take ALL the volume. Be ready to stop the return pump, or open that gate valve fast....just in case. (and make sure that the emergency overflow actually has pipe connected to it!!!!)

When you go to fine tune things, you'll find that small changes to the gate valve make a difference. It also takes a while for the system to equalize after a change, so adjust slowly.

Ok that all makes sense but what about getting the refugium herbie and main drain herbie working together? It seems like it would be hard to work on fine tuning both at the same time, especially if you are starting with both wide open. I guess Im just a bit nervous. If it were just the overflow using a herbie, I would feel fine but the refugium one worries me.

While the two Herbies will inter-relate, it's no big deal. They will inter-relate because they can influence the water level in the sump. If the sump level stays constant, they will be very stable. Trust me, it isn't difficult to adjust multiple Herbies to achieve a steady state.

Remember, you should be able to flood anything, provided your emergency overflows are in place. If the Herbie valves get really mis-adjusted, then the water just flows down the emergency pipes and makes a lot of noise. You adjust them, and wait for the system to achieve a new steady state.

Here's some fun...I won't even attempt to explain this in detail...but I can manipulate the salinity of my system by adjusting the Herbie valve that runs between my small sump and the main sump. Hint: evap water is monitored by a float valve in the main sump. If you can get your head around that one, then you have achieve Herbie mastery!

Ooh, ohhh, I know! I know! .. By adjusting the Herbie valve, a robot comes online and goes and gets a cup of salt and then dumps the salt into the sump? Cool!!

I also guess a robot named Herbie!



Or maybe because you can let more flow from your smaller sump into the larger one and therefore not allow the auto top off to kick in even though evaporation is still the same.

But maybe both answers are wrong. Im not entirely sure how your sumps are set up!

Bingo! That valve controls the water level in both sumps, but evap replacement only happens based on the main sump water level. It was totally unplanned, but kind of neat when I figured it out.

You'll have exactly that same relationship between your fuge and the sump.

Yeah and if my fish do not behave I can threaten them with salinity changes! :twised:

So I picked up the glass for my overflow today and I may have made a mistake. This is to be a toothless overflow. I wanted it to be as close to the top of the tank as possible but I may have got it cut a bit too close. I got it cut so that it will only be 3/8" under the eurobracing. Will this be too close to the top of the tank? It should only be a very thin layer going over the overflow anyways but it looks close. What do you guys think? Does it make sense how I explained it?

I measured on mine and the water surface to the bottom of the Eurobrace and I have 3/4". I held up an edge at about 3/8" and can't see the distance being a problem other then when the 4 way goes around I might get rippling that high. It would just mean it would get salt creep on the bracing more than I get now. Maybe also the water level might go over if I plunged my arm in until the overflow caught back up.

Yeah thats pretty much what I thought. I think it will be fine...Well it better be. I am also wondering though if the overflow will be big enough to handle the 2" drain. I may have made it too small.

Just realized I have another small issue. My RO unit came with a faucet adapter but I cannot use it in my apartment because it is for threaded faucets (like laundry sink ones) and I just have the kitchen and bathroom sink faucets to use (not threaded just regular faucets). Is there anything I can pick up from somewhere like home depot to use?

Actually the glass is too tall. It just barely leaves 3/8", maybe even a bit less. What a pain...I guess I have to have new glass cut. I don't think they can trim off just a tiny bit for me. :sad:

This is all because the eurobracing is a bit lower and thicker than I thought it was. Its 1/2" glass.

A few more things Im really not sure about. I started doing my plumbing and realized that there is not much room to plumb another herbie drain between the refugium and sump. Im also wondering about the fact that the refugium is not raised up much higher than the sump. Is this even going to work? If the refugium is draining from near the bottom and then into the sump by gravity, it would barely be a drop at all. I don't know if that makes sense but this doesn't seem to work out in my head. Is it possible just to keep them at the same level and connected through bulkheads near the bottom. That way just allowing water to flow through the refugium into the return section of the sump?

I will draw a picture:mrgreen:

If I understand you correctly I think it will work. The only thing is that without the "drop" that you will not be able to push too much water through the refugium because the back pressure might cause the refugium to overflow. So you might need to experiment with flowrates to find the optimal rate, but I think it's not a showstopper. Good luck!

Super rough and simple but here we go. Just something basic like this. And yes, I was actually concerned about back pressure but I do not want too much flow through the refugium anyways. I have seen this done before but I do not know how it worked exactly. It does seem like it would be hard to get flow moving properly through the refugium.

Like I said before though, because of space the second herbie would be hard to do. plus I do not see how it will work without much of the height difference. I may be missing something though!


http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...smith/blah.jpg

Oh - hmmm - why not just raise the refugium a little (put it on bricks or build a little platform) so that the top is at the same level as the top of the sump? Then it can't overflow (well, not without the sump overflowing too).

Actually it is already a little above, so I guess I could just leave it as it is. Im really just running into problems with space. If I had more space in height and width, this would all be no issue.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...h/DSC00527.jpg

To bad about the glass.

You're layout would work.

Any water movement you have have from the pump pushing the water up and gravity filling the void. More will be from the sump as less restriction but you'll get some movement from the ref, plus you have a little head difference working for you as well.

I'm laying mine out very similiar and it's my project for today so should be able to tell you how it works, at least for me. I do have a problem, being a low max flow, but more do the size of interconnect (1"). Hope your planning something like 2".

On my ro/di have the output going to a Tee, one side is a float valve in the sump, other side to container I use for mixing water. Find the John Guest valve works well as connects easy to the tubing, HD carries.

Well my mistake with the glass but they said they can take 1/2" off for me. So not too big a deal.

I will read through your thread and see what your doing. It will help.

As for the RO/DI I am actually talking about how I can hook up the unit to a faucet that is not threaded. The RO until came with an adapter that threads into the intake for the unit and then threads into the faucet. Problem is, I do not have a faucet with threads. I would need something that just fit onto the faucet like a slip...if there is such a thing?

Okay, you're talking the supply to the ro/di, for some reason I thought the faucet Aquasafe has for the output.

Usually a bathroom or kitchen faucet has a screen secured with a screw in collar. If you can get the collar off then there's adapters that go on the fine threads on the faucet then allow a garden hose to be screwed on (old water bed days) or other pipe threads.

If that doesn't work, under the counter tee into the cold water line after the shutoff valve and before the tap-set. Between the tee and the ro/di put a valve in so you can remove the unit. Might even be better this way as not tying up the sink in the bathroom or kitchen if making up water.

Hey Guys,
If you want an easy solution to installing your R/O.. Go down to the hardware store and buy a Ice maker install kit, they are like 20 bucks it comes with a needle valve that mounts to your water line under the sink. Once you attach it the valve will punch it's own hole in the water main. No need to call a plumber, and the hose diameter is the same as the R/O and has the fittings to connect to your R/O lines.. For mine rather then install new sewer parts, I drilled a hole in one of the sink draines and ran the waste water hose into it, a little dab of silicone and it was done... The whole thing took like 10 minutes to install.

Thanks guys. I figured out how to hook it up to the kitchen sink.

I also had the glass cut down a bit. Very nice of the glass guys to do it and for free! It was my mistake after all. I was checking to see how it fit now and its great but I noticed that it will be hard to silicone the pieces to the bottom corners of the tank because of the silicone thats already there to attach the wall of the tank to the bottom. Any ideas? Its quite thick black silicone and stops the my overflow glass from sitting flush against the back glass.

I guess I will also direct this on going question I have had about using a herbie between the fuge and sump to Untamed, since he seems to be the expert! Looking at the picture above, will it actually work to have a bulkhead at the bottom of the fuge (right) and still create a herbie overflow to the sump on the left??? It seems like there is no where near enough height difference. I mean the water would go through a gate valve and then would have to go through another bulkhead in the sump but only about 6" below where the output (fuge) bulkhead will be. Seems like without much gravity working there, it may not work. A whole lot of back pressure too. Anyways I have no idea, I could be wrong.

For the overflow glass, just take the corner off where it goes to the tank silicone.

Not to open this all up again but pls clarify, going from your drawing (and being your primary drain is blue and other that's above the 'n' in return is the emergency).

-You'll have a single gate valve just below the bulkhead and above the Tee to control the flow to the primary Herbie drain.

-A ball valve (as course adjustment okay) on the right leg after the Tee over towards the ref to control how much actually splits into the refugium (other leg, goes left dumping unrestricted to sump).

-The emergency drain line dumps, if needed, directly to the sump.

Yes, thats exactly the plan.

The main drain will be adjusted by the gate valve to get the right flow to match the return pump. The return is split with a "T" though to direct some flow to the refugium on the right and the bulk of the flow to the sump on the left. The refugium flow is controlled by a ball valve. The return pump is being run externally right between the fuge and sump.

Now what Im struggling with is how to connect the refugium back to the sump. I originally was going to have a bulkhead near the top and let water gravity feed back to the sump through 2" plumbing but that would cause all kinds of bubbles that I do not want. So, Untamed had the idea of adding a second herbie to the connection between the fuge and sump which is a great idea BUT I think the fuge is not elevated enough and I don't see how the herbie would work there...but I am not sure of that. Next I thought I would keep the fuge and sump basically level with each other and connect them at the bottom with 2" bulkheads. Only problem here, is controlling flow between them and making sure the fuge is flowing into the sump properly.

Any help would be great because Im just sitting here staring at it with no idea right now how to proceed. I was hoping to finish the plumbing today. :razz:

This works...Even if the fuge and sump are very similar heights, it is the difference in the water levels that powers the flow. For simplicity I have not drawn any baffles in the fuge. Without baffles, algae would get sucked out of the fuge. I'm sure you've got that part covered.

Ok...Dont get too sick of me! Im really sorry but I have another idea that would work with the space I have. What about just having the return pump fed by a "T" that connects to both the fuge and sump. Like this:

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/sho...ze=big&cat=500

I do not know how to post pics from the user galleries here into a thread. :sad:

Yeah see that will not work then unless I really keep my sump water level really, really low. Basically, I could only have about 8" of water in it for this to work. I also cannot raise my fuge any higher. I think I need to figure something else out.

I am still working on the fuge baffles actually. Its hard to find something that will work as baffles in a rubbermaid container. So far I have nothing.

OK...assuming that is a pretty large pipe joining the two tanks....in your new drawings the fuge and sump are connected and will act as one single tank. The water level in each will always remain equal height. It doesn't matter where you put the return pump, the behaviour will be the same.

That will also enable the water to flow silently between them. (assuming both ends of the connection stay under waterline) I imagine that the end effect will be a very deep sump in order to keep adequate depth in the fuge.

Imagine reducing the size of pipe that runs between the two tanks. At some point, the pipe gets so small that the fuge needs to generate more head pressure to push through the water that is coming in. At that point, the fuge water level starts to rise in relation to the sump and you've created an non-adjustable Herbie.

If the pipe is too small to carry the incoming flow, even when the fuge is full (max head pressure), then the fuge overflows.

The bottom line is...if you put a gate valve on that line, you'll be able to adjust the water heights between the fuge and sump to whatever you want. If you want 10" in the sump, and 11" in the fuge...you can do it. Sump level is controlled by the total amount of water in the system...fuge level is controlled by the Herbie valve. Just make sure you have an emergency overflow on the fuge.

My answers are very long-winded. Why don't you just call me, or come visit? PM me if you are interested.