I'm not laughing :lol:

Thanks for the tip, Simon. I do know about Wai's. I visit his store every week, he has some nice candy for sure. But I have to caution you about Wai's and clams. He sells some good stuff, but, sometimes, well .... I don't really want to get into it, but let's just say "caveat emptor." His clams don't necessarily fare any better than from any others. He'll happily charge you $150 or more for clams with, that upon inspection of the clam when you get it home, has evident damage to their byssal gland. I unfortunately speak from experience. As I'm sure with many LFS, you have to trust your own instinct about how much risk is associated with a certain purchase. Some things are fine ... some things may not be, despite appearances.

Unfortunately with clams, it's very hard to guage what that risk is, because, they tend to look "100% healthy" up until the point that they die. Look fine one day, boom, next day they're gone. I'm not exaggerating. It takes a very keen eye to spot trouble early on (usually the easy way to tell is to look at the byssal gland .... not many LFS will let you do this in their store, however).

To be fair, I know of several T. derasa clams that have come from this store that have fared well over time. T. maxima and T. crocea have horrible survival rates in my opinion, doesn't matter where they come from. The smaller they are, the worse it is. The problem I had was with baby clams (2" and smaller -- some as small as 1"). I knew that the odds were not good going in (this is why they tend to be cheap too), and despite my efforts, the odds were correct this time around. I fed copious amounts of DT's ($50 per month ... I was not kidding when I said "I joined the DT's diet and in six months I lost $300." The end result is the same: I have about $200 worth of shells now, and about $300 worth of empty DT's bottles. :(

From here on, I'm staying away from baby clams. If there is a "next one" for me, it will be some 3" - 4" monster. And if it comes pre-attached to a rock, so much the better.

Clam vendors like Barry and Jim Norris aren't selling DT's as far as I know. They don't get anything out of promoting DT's unless the product works. If the product works, then more people will buy clams because they'll be able to keep them alive. If the product doesn't work and clams die, then people will be discouraged from buying clams from them. It is in their best interest to give people good information on how to keep clams alive. I don't see how they would benefit by telling people to use DT's if there is no benefit to using it. IE. I don't see their vested interest in the sale of DT's.

If it was the other way around, then I would understand. IE. The more clams are sold, the more DTs will be sold. So, DT vendors would have a vested interested in selling more clams.

Its like dog kennels and Dog Chow. Let's assume Dog Chow helps keep dogs healthy and happy. Dog kennels won't benefit by pushing Dog Chow. However, pushing dog sales will benefit companies that sell Dog Chow. The more dogs that are sold (and produced) means that more Dog chow will be sold.

first off, why the f@#$ am i getting a topic reply notification, to a post that is a couple of months old???

anyhow...

since they were mentioned...
Barry does sell DTs, not sure if Jim did before, but he now sells some other clam/coral food.

how so? are you telling me, that if i set up a clam tank, stock it full of nice clams, feed the clams DT all the time, and whenever someone asks me about keeping clams i tell them it is important to feed DTs. then i start offering nice clams to the public, you don't think people will follow my example and purchase some Dts from me as well? if you promote a product, whether it works or not, or even if it is a placebo, if it sells, bottom line is, you make money. that is marketing, you make money from it period.

My argument assumed that those clam vendors didn't sell DT's. At the time I posted, I didn't see DT's on Barry's website. Maybe it was there and I missed it. I see that he sells DT's now.

The benefits of phytoplankton are widely published. Clam vendors aren't the only people pushing DT's. Many researchers are too and they don't have any financial stake in it that I know of. They might not be essential for raising adult clams in tanks with super MH lighting. But it could be very beneficial for those with questionable lighting and nutrients in the water.

Rob Toonen http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...en_102500.html


"Despite the fact that phytoplankton form the basis of marine food webs in general, and are an essential component of the diet for many reef creatures (such as fan worms, sea apples, giant clams, gorgonians and tunicates, to name a few), they are probably the least common element included in feeding an aquarium."

"Everyone realizes that to keep fish healthy in an aquarium, they need to be fed something, but many people are misled into thinking that feeding their corals, clams or other animals with photosynthetic symbionts (such as zooxanthellae) is somehow going to be bad for them. It is true that animals with photosynthetic symbionts have forged a relationship that makes it easier for them to survive in the nutrient-poor tropical waters that support most coral reefs, but it is untrue that these animals do not require any nutrition other than that provided by their symbionts. The fact that no organism on a coral reef can obtain 100% of their nutritional requirements from the release of photosynthate by algal symbionts is viewed as support for the importance of additional feeding by many, "

"Live phytoplankton is obviously the best option in terms of nutritional value and low risk of over-feeding. Live cultures are the standard by which all other products are judged, and the others can be "as good as live" but no one has ever discovered a phytoplankton supplement that performs better than live. "

Dr. Ron http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...nkton+AND+clam

Q. you say clams will not live on zanthellae alone. other then phytoplankton, could you tell me what else to use.

"A. First, the references about clam nutrition follow, should you care to examine them. The information about clam nutrition is not mine, rather it comes from researchers in the field.

Phytoplankton is really the only source. Live phytoplankton is best. Cryogenically preserved phytoplankton is next best. Liquid invert "foods" are unlikely to feed any clam directly they simply will not eat the stuff. Such foods may stimulate the growth of bacteria which the clams will eat. Personally, I wouldn't waste my time or money on any of the liquid "foods." "


If the clam vendors who sell phytoplankton were the only ones pushing it while all the research shows that phytoplankton was useless, then yes, I would agree that it is nothing but a marketing scheme designed to increase phytoplankton sales. But there is too much literature out there for me to believe that it is just marketing.


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Just to play devils avocate, there are now a few bigger people sayign that you don't need to feed clams and that the reason small ones die is because they have a high mortality rate, and there is no proof that DT's or others actualy help..

this is not nessasarly my opinion, but I like to read both sides of the fence.

Steve

Hi Steve. That's interesting. I would like to learn more about those claims. Any links? Thanks.

i know what you are saying sam...i think.
and i am not arguing that there isnt a possible benefit to clams and corals to feed DTs.
what i am saying is...DT may not be as necessary as some claim for the health of the animals in our care.
point being, many people are able to keep these animals, and have kept them with out the addition of products such as DTs.
i am all for change and improvment in the husbandry of animals under our care. i just don't feel there is enough info out there to sway me into believing DTs is necessary for the healthy survival of a clam.
it is also my opinion that smaller clams 1-2" have a higher mortality rate. and that may be due to them needing foods stuffs as a food source, as oppossed to larger clams who are thought of as being able to sustain themselves through light. if this is the case, i simply choose to pass on the small specimen and get a larger one that wont require me dosing DTs in order for it to even have a decent chance at surviving in my tank.