Jaws you are right.

Phosphate levels in an aquarium can not be detected properly with salifert, hagen, aquarium pharmaceuticals etc. kits.

Although fairly expensive to use (and not completely necessary), the only way to get proper phosphate reading is by the use of either

Hanna Colorimeters
Merck Phosphate Kit

I believe the Merck phosphate kit has been rebranded by some aquarium company so it may be more readily available in that version. (I'm not sure of which company rebranded it, we use the original Merck versions at the lab).

I use a Hanna colorimeter to test phosphates in my tanks and can attest to the inaccuracy or I guess inablility of the Salifert and other readily available test kits to test for PO4. I was shocked when I first got the Hanna to realize how much PO4 was actually in my systems that didn't show up on the Salifert.

yup something we have been saying for about a year now and we still waist the money on them hehe.

anyways thanks for the reply and I guess the other question I would be interested in seeing either tried out or maybe it already has been, but Jaws asked it at the end of the post you replied to.

"My question is, theoretically, if you didn't have optimal tank conditions, and still had some nutrients in your tank that was causing algae growth, should it not still export the excess nutrients and help starve the nuisance algae?"

I guess it is what happens if you don't follow the requirements religiously, Like for my self when I am posted to ship I sail for up to 4 months at a time, now I can have some one do basic stuff a couple times a week but water changes and daily dosing are out, heck I don't even feed my fish daily, I go every second day so a daily anything is going to be a pain. Am I just not destined to use any produce like this or are they a little forgiving?

Steve

Polyp Labs: I accidently left out the Genesis bottle for the afternoon, will this be a problem as it says to keep refrigerated after opening?

Hey Dave, a few questions of my own:

1. Would the use of a UV sterilizer or Ozone have deleterious effects on the RF system?

2. Does RF require substantial amounts of surface area to operate? IE. Does it require live rock or another substrate (bioballs) to produce significant results thus far demonstrated?

3. How does RF interact with refugiums and algae turf scrubbers?

:D

Edit: Nevermind on the first question, I just found the FAQ.

Deltec USA sells the high end phosphate kits. Some where in the neighborhood of a $100 in Vancouver.

Doug

OK well all I see here is text, somebody has to have some before and after pictures by now :mrgreen:

Very nice tank Rich!

Doug

Im with Rich... lets see those before and after shots. :mrgreen:

I definitely need to spend money on a new camera! Gotta slow down on the tank though! I will do up a 2 week report here in the next few days. I am still impressed with the product...nitrates are still undetectable and growth has maintained the same levels. The bacterial mats are thriving in the refuge and noticed some on the rock. Not that pretty though! They are not noticeable in the tank at least! At first I wondered what these slimey mats were. My skimmer cup is filling up every 3 days compared to five!

Dirty Reefer: Leaving the product out at room temp is fine once in a while. Don't worry about it =)

Albert: It definitely needs surface area to work. Most tanks will have more than enough surface area for the system to work effectively. As for the effects on refugiums and turf scrubbers, you will likely have much slower macro growth.

Rich & Muck: A few before/after photos exist on some forums but I don't want to break canreef forum rules posting links..

I have bought the system and starting it today. I will post pics. of two test subjects ( purple acro and a purple milli ) and tank prams. weekly starting next week ,every Sunday, As Sunday is my normal tank maintenance day


Thank you Polyp Lab for staying in touch with this thread, your input is very much appreciated

.

Tangman why don't you take some pictures of your tank today and then it will be a good guage of where it started from and how things changed? Just a thought.:mrgreen:

Maybe I wasn't clear enough ( English wasn't my best subject in school and school was a long time ago) but that is what I am doing..Ha,ha

I apologize for my skeptisism,

But are you not still relying on the existing filtration and maintanece to remove nutrients regardless of form?

It really doesnt matter what the cells, bacteria or micro-whatever are doing when they just bind up nutrients for a time then "shed" them, you still end up with the same mechanical means of removal as before...problem is you just added more stuff to the tank, of course your skimmer is working better.

Polp extention in Jl`s tank is largly due to the wavebox, i can attest to the improvements they contribute in polyp extention, i would guess they would tell you the same.

Since bacteria store phosphates, it makes no sence to me why one would want to add more to a system, regardless of better strains.

This goes against the theory of nutrient poor systems such as BB`s, where the idea is to REMOVE the bacteria from the system, not give them some more food.

A good analogy would be the refugium itself, while the algea are awesome at nutrient uptake, where does it end up ?

It ends up with you manually harvesting the algea from the tank, or the algea dies and it is re-released.

Fudge:

Yes you relying on the skimmer to remove waste.

The bacterial strains in our product, feed on nutrients in your water column that are not removable by a skimmer. For example, if you poured a cup of fertilizer into your aquarium, you'd have a serious nutrient problem. And having a skimmer wouldn't help one bit.

With system Reef-resh. you are introducing bacteria that consumes nutrients. These bacteria are readily remove by a skimmer.

These aren't "better" strains. The strains in the product form biofilms. This isn't a buzzword. Biofilms are very efficient at nutrient removal and are used in thousands of real-world applications. Furthermore, they do not "shed" the nutrients. They shed the cells themselves that have used these nutrients to grow.


And while a wavebox certainly helps polyp extension, give J&L a call and ask them if they noticed a difference in polyp extension when they started using this product. (There's a reason why they wanted to carry our product)


BTW: Nutrient poor systems are not designed to remove bacteria. They are designed to remove nutrients. This is what our product does.


I feel like I have repeated myself 10X in this thread.......

.

Id expect some special bacteria wouldnt adress the problem either, but ill consider it next time i put fertilizer in my tank.

Yes, they are. Biomass=life=nutrients. If you remove the life, you also remove what that life produces.
Bacteria leak....most detritus is produced by BACTERIA.
Im afraid you are adressing only a portion of a much larger process.

Heres one of many,

"The skimmer will export what's available and in a form that the skimmer can export. What is not in that form, will sit in solution, be grabbed and re-cycled by bacteria/phyto/etc again - eventually it has to go back through a form that the skimmer can export."

Lets call this fella a DR. in marine biology, and pathobiology.
He doesnt have anything to sell unfortunatly.

Please dont feel you need to for me.

The factual information in your quote from Bomber is correct. (That sounds like something that he would say but I could be wrong)

But while excess nutrients are "sitting in solution" they are also being grabbed by organisms that you do not want growing (like nuisance algae).

I completely understand the skepticism. It is very difficult to look at a product like this and give it the benefit of the doubt.

All I know is that I've used this product for only 4 days and I've noticed better polyp extension on all my SPS. I even had one SPS that wouldn't extend at all, and now it is. It's gotta be doing something....

Hopefully it's not a Bomber quote... from what I've read the only DR. he has is in BS, and not the science kind either. (although I agree with some of what he's said, he's lied too much to make anything credible)

I have been following this thread for awhile. Dave, I think Fudge is just skeptical of using it as alot of us spent huge amounts of money into out tanks. The idea of introducting something new to our tanks is not often very comforting as there are many products out there that are useless. These guys are just asking tonnes of questions, as they should, to decide whether or not they'd like to give it a try or not.

I have been fortunate enough to know Dave since he launched Polyp Lab and have tested his products on my own tanks well before they were released. With the system Reef-Resh, I saw my phosphate levels drop to undetectable levels and my SPS color up to be even brighter than I had ever imagined possible in a span of about 4 months. I stand behind this system that Polyp Lab has developed, it works wonders. I do not have any sort of scientific background so cannot explain how it works in any details but have seen the results first hand.

The guys at Polyp Lab have put countless hours of time and money into developing these products, I have been fortunate enough to have seen the lab first hand and have met the people who he has working there.

Cheers,

Derek

I don't think that anyone is bashing Polyp Labs at all. Sure there are lots of questions and some skepticizm about using a new product and as you say rightly so. Hell follow some of the early threads on RC about Zeovit if you want to see some big time skepticizm and outright bashing.
I think that Fudge has more than proved his ability as an outstanding reef keeper and has asked some very ligitimate questions. I think that it is the way that he was answered that has a few hackles raised - again rightly so. If you read the thread you can see that there are quite a few people that have taken the plunge and are using this product and I know that talking with the folks at J&L they are very excited about it and believe in the product. I have not tried it yet so cannot comment on the actual product one way or another but may try it in the future. For now I am waiting on a new reactor to continue to use the zeovit system as I have way too many of their products to give up now.
I think that Fudge and others have every right to ask questions about this system and I believe that Polyp Labs, if they believe in their product, which I am sure they do, have a responsibility to answer his and other questions, respectfully and politely and if this means answering it over and over maybe use the quote function to show that you have already answered that specific inquiry.
Let's not let this turn into a flame war but rather continue on in a respectful manner so that all of us can learn and decide for ourselves if we want to try this product on our reefs.
Wheew:mrgreen:

pysire,

You must have heard that from an advocate of DSB`s...
Yes it is Bomber, He has no need to lie, he gains nothing other than your understanding.

I am a skeptic, because for 15 years ive watched these products come and go, i am willing to bet 98% of them are all but useless.

Please understand polyp lab, im not trying to bash your product. I am sure you have put much time,effort and money into it.

But it bothers me to say "here add this source of carbon, vitamins and some amino acids....." to your tanks and it will be Nutrient Poor.

It seems backwards to me, the bacteria your feeding..do not need to be there in the first place.
If your adding something...your adding something.

Tell me, if you do not feed these bacteria a source of carbon, what happens ?

Amen! :)

Sorry Fudge/Cprowler/Ruth...

My snide remark earlier was uncalled for. And I would like to apologize to this forum for coming across abrasively.


And now..back to the regular program... =)

"If you don't add an appropriate carbon source, What happens ?"

The bacteria will stay in a planktonic state and can't form biofilms.
Bacteria use cell to cell communications to control gene expression amongst the cells. (This mechanisms is called quorom sensing). Some bacterial species use this to initiate biofilm formation.

At a high enough population density, these signals are able to instruct the cells to form biofilms. At lower densities, these signals are ineffective.

- If you don't add an appropriate carbon source. You can not reach the required population density.

- If you use an appropriate carbon source but without the addition of the right bacterial strains. Your bacterial flora will be in a ratio which will not permit the development of biofilms.

- If you use a different kind of carbon source like vodka or vinegar, you end up with a bloom of autotrophic bacteria. (Which are essentially useless for nutrient export)

for some you have, but 1 question has been asked 2 or 3 times and you have just ignored it, could you please answer it and if you don't know just say that or take a guess. this is a question that would impact a lot of your users as not many have conditions which you require for the use of your product.

Psyire, what were all your water peramiters befor you though of starting to use this and what are they now that you are?

estey, what are you using to measure your Phosphates?

Steve

Hey Stir Crazy, I just flipped back through the thread and found your question. I really was not ignoring it. Sorry about that.

"My question is, theoretically, if you didn't have optimal tank conditions, and still had some nutrients in your tank that was causing algae growth, should it not still export the excess nutrients and help starve the nuisance algae?"

Most definitely. The product will still act as an effective nutrient export mechanism if you never did any water changes whatsoever.

We list those optimal tank conditions for hobbyists to obtain the best environment in their aquariums.

Hey Steve,

I am using the Deltec phosphate test kit. My phosphate levels before using system Reefresh were 0.15 ppm before and sit at about 0.03 now constantly.

Derek

Derek, Sounds as though you've been running this system the longest. Care to share some tank pics? You know what they say... The proof is in the pudding. and I've always thought pictures are the pudding in this hobby. So lets see the pudding. :)

Hey Jamie,

The first tank was a 120 Gallon that was used as the display tank for Frag Factory, which went when I sold the business, so it is no longer going. It was mainly softie and LPS dominated with some SPS, which colored up nicely over the course of a few months.

Attached is a picture of a nano as it looks tonight that I am experimenting with the Reefresh system. It has a very heavy load in it, with 3 shrimp, 2 seahorses and 2 red banded pipefish that are eating mysis.

The tank has about 20 different colors of zoos, 30 different ricordia colors, a 3"+ Superman danae, 5 or 6 echinos and numerous acans including a maxima - All in a 12 gallon JBJ with 96 watts of PC lighting.

I am running no filtration on the tank other than live rock and carbon. I am dosing the Reefresh system daily and have not done a water change on the tank in over 6 weeks. My nitrates are at 0 and phosphates at 0.03. I clean the glass maybe once every 2 weeks when there is a very light film.

Hope this helps. I know that is is not an SPS dominated system but it is an indication of how it keeps nutrients down in a system.

Cheers,

Derek

Here are some pictures of a friends tank who is also experimenting with the system. Not to talk about other forums but this is Klay's tank from AP. It is a 180 Gallon.

Derek

.........................

wooo large polyp dave has always had a lps inspiring tank!

Just thought I'd pipe in.....read the instructions closely on the RF Fuel. I had a brainfart when I was dosing this, and was dosing 5ml per 25 gallons instead of .05ml!!! No harm to my tank, but a damn expensive mistake. Best of luck with the system. I have only just started to use it two days ago.

I stated in my report that my Nitrates were at 5 when I started....they have ALWAYS been between 5-10....I feed the tank heavily for my numerous fish and corals (maybe too much!) I have stayed with the same regimen and am now getting 0 readings. My PO4 has always read 0....I do not own one of the True PO4 readers though...just a salifert tester

Derek you showed some images of a friends tank, yes the tank does look great and bursting with color-then again most fully stocked LPS or SPS tanks usually do.

I, like Jamie and others in this thread would like to see not just the result of- but instead before and after results, and I'm not talking a year apart either as many variables come into play during that length of time. I have heard from a few people now that "oh my/there tank/corals look amazing in only a week/month of using this product line". There must be someone using these products locally by now who has images recorded of both before and during use of this product.

If someone is going to start using this product soon and doesn't have time/access to take some digital images, I would be more than happy to drop by and take some snaps of your system!

I also have a question for Poly Lab;

If a person was running a skimmer on there system that was just able to keep up with removing the nutrients out of there reef or running at 100% efficiency without them knowing so, wouldn't the results of using this product do more harm than good?

Finally by no means am I trying to bash or act negative toward this product, instead I am simply trying to understand it in every aspect.

SHOW ME THE MONEY.... I mean pics
 

Lets see pics pics pics :biggrin: In our hobby and this industry, two things talk. MONEY and PICTURES.

On the depressing part about money, I wish I could afford this product but with the water volume that I will have in the near future and with the products in its current size of bottles, it will only last me 2-3 weeks. Thats the crappy part about going big- everything just costs more!!