DIY is always a great option. More for the learning and enjoyment that the price difference. Quite often you spend close to the same amount of money compared to new, but YOU built it.

Router is the word you are looking for I think.

And you need the wood for the doors. Skinning the naked frame is as expensive as you want, depends on the type of wood you want.

ReefGeek,

You're right. I forgot to mention the styrofoam under the tank. I like to get mine from Rona (blue as opposed to HomeDepot's pink).

OCDP,

If you did the stand in just 2 by 4s & stained it, that would save you money until you can buy all the trim & doors, etc. Those could be added later on to the front & sides with no problem, leaving the back open.

If you AC500, you can just take off the top & add a hanging shop light or clip on desk light (around here, the Phillips Daylight CFS bulbs from HomeDepot are popular).

Anthony

Alright, I'll be sure to grab the styrofoam.

Thanks for the fuge lighting tips too..

I think I have decided on dimensions.... I have someone who can build the tank for me. I am thinking of doing 24x24x18. It's better than the current 24x12x15. It will be open top with egg crate, and trimless (I always liked the look of trimless tanks..) So same length unfortunately, but it will work best this way with my light.

What do you guys think?

I think a tank like that would have some neat potential. :)

Cool . The only thing is I can't provide more length for the Flame Angel. But I was thinking if I create an island look... with caves and areas for him to pass through,, then this could work out not too too bad. I mean 45g is better than 20g for swimming room... not the best, but better.

Yup, that would be very nice. If you went with a deeper tank, just don't keep any high light corals on the bed. An 18" deep tank though is easier on the arm pits (speaking from experience).

Anthony

Alrighty.. I think I will stick with these dimensions. It helped knowing the dimensions of my current 20g.. made it easier for me to visualize what it would look like. I think the width will allow me to make a nifty Island aquascape (hopefully , my aquascape abilities suck)

As far as the light goes... SPS will all do well as long as they are on the rock work, correct? Just don't have any on the bed is what you're saying?

I planned on doing it something like.... SPS at the top and middle of the rock work, zoos and rics near the bottom of the rock work, and LPS on the sand bed or in cracks of the rock work. Just sketching it out in my head.. I think it would work nicely like that.

Scott,

I feel your anger and frustration. Two years ago, I had a lfs employee, where I no longer shop, that told me four various dwarf and non-dwarf angels as well as a butterfly would be fine in a 72g bowfront. So I bought them all, figuring they were all in the same tank at the lfs, and they would therefore all be buddies in my tank. Of course, I should have done my homework much, much better and not bought them at all :redface: And, as it turned out, they came down with velvet shortly after being in the tank and, one after the other, all freaking died :cry:

We are also limited by space in our condo for the number and size of tanks we can have. Presently, we cannot upgrade any of our tanks unless we take out the fireplace. A 230g could easily replace our 120g if that dang fireplace and some pesky furniture weren't in the way :razz:

Die off of what? The live rock? Why would this happen? Personally, I don't think it will, IMHO. I would put your Live Rock all back in the new tank at once. There is nothing better for cycling your tank than LR, IMHO. Heck, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you won't even get a cycle that way. I would also add more than just a few lbs, but you could wait on that. Try to match pound/gallon what you have in the 20, eventually, IMHO.

As for "cleaning the living hell out of it" (live rock)....why? IMHO, just swish each piece in some tank water from the 20 in a bucket and Bob's your uncle.

Speaking of tankwater from the 20....try to save as much of this as possible for the new tank so you are not going with 100% new mixed SW.

As for the tank plans and the lighting....it seems a common trend to me, with most reefers, that one upgrade leads to another. My point being that once you get the new tank going, are you sure you won't want to upgrade your lighting? IMHO, I would research lighting now also, with the idea that an upgrade here just might cross your mind later. No? This way, maybe you will avoid some grief on lighting decisions if you've planned and purchased the appropriate tank.

That's great that you are upgrading. Now you will have a QT tank with the 20g!:smile:

Good luck and cheers,:smile:

Yes, of course put all your live rock back in at once, the live rock you already have that is. And you dont need to clean it, just swish it around as stated.

Nobody said the tank was going to re-cycle. Unless you add a whole bunch of new uncured live rock at once. THEN the die off from that might spike the tank. By the time "live" rock makes it to Edmonton, it aint to live. It smells horrible from everything rotting on it. So if you are adding uncured live rock, dont add to much, IMHO.

I agree with this, if it is established rock from a running tank and it is going to be out of water for a very short time (less than say 3 hours) then thewre won't be any die off and even if there was a tiny bit there is more than enuf bacteria in the rock to handle it.




this I disagree with, I have set up a new system (either from moving or what ever) about 5 times now and every time I use 100% new salt water. I have never lost anything and all I worry about is getting the PH, Alk and Temp the same in the two tanks.

changing tanks is a perfect time for that 100% clensing waterchange:mrgreen:

Steve

Guys, I said ADD live rock to the tank, as in he is upgrading his tank and buying more. Of course he is not going to get any die off from his cured live rock already in the tank.

I would never even consider putting uncured Live Rock into any system. Consequently, the thought did not enter my mind when I read your post and I thought you were talking about the cured established rock.

Do you mean to say that there are no LFS's in Edmonton that cure LR and sell it as such?

There's also the option of the aquarist curing it themselves.

Like I said...I would never put uncured LR in any system.

Glad we got that cleared up and cheers:smile:,

Yup, I will be adding all my Live Rock.. and the reason I said I was going to clean the hell out of it is because there's some algae (hair, weird macros [ugly] macros.. ) that I want off. I like to see purple on my rocks.. not algae. I will be adding a small amount of LR though.. and it's for the most part cured. I'm not worried really.. it wont be too much rock.. or if I do need lots, I'll be sure not to add lots at a time.

I will be using 100% newly mixed water in the new tank..

I got the OK to do the upgrade.. 24x24x18. Just need to build a stand. It won't be anything fancy.. just a basic look. The downside is I may not be able to start building until the beginning of April.. or shortly after. BUT in the meantime I may start buying all the equipment I'll need and getting some of that stuff out of the way.

I'm looking forward to this.. I'm really looking forward to starting out fresh and CLEAN... keeping on top of it 100% . I want the tank to look as new as possible at all times. I'll be able to design an aquascape I've always wanted to try, just not able to do so.

I may fill the tank with the water you can get at the grocery store, is it just RO water? Anyways, I am going to use that to fill the tank, then in a couple months I am going to look into an RO/DI unit.

Lighting is staying the same. I haven't had this fixture long, and to be honest.. I like it. I like the way it looks... and if all goes according to plan, it should do me well with the new tank. Only thing I'm changing in lighting is my bulb, the brand, and K rating :mrgreen: I also just added a 1 3/4W lunar light to the tank, and it suprisingly looks great. Perhaps because my fixture goes high up and I taped it on (yes taped.. it looks okay though) and it spreads very nicely throughout the tank.

Mark, the LFS here do have holding tanks for live rock. But they don't cure it before selling it per say.

You never know when the shipment came in, and the good stuff sells long before it is cured, because you get to pick out your pieces.

What is left over that IS eventually cured is dense crap with no life on it.

This is of course in general, and just my opinion.

Scott,

If you're filling a 40g tank with store-bought water, at about $5/5 gallon, you're looking at $40 just for the water & it'll be a pain transporting that many jugs of water (8 jugs total). You're much better off adding $100 or so to that to get the RODI unit from Aquasafe, instead of upgrading later & wasting your $ now. It's really a worthwhile investment because you can use it for drinking & cooking as well.

Most of the local reefers have one & love it.

Anthony

Perhaps I shall look into one right now then. I know it will definitely be worth the cash. Thanks for pointing that out to me Anthony, otherwise I would have went and spent all that cash at the grocery store.

Are these units just found on eBay? How hard are they to hook up? Mine would have to be portable (if that's possible) It would need to be hooked up to the sink. Then stored away after using it.

I bought mine off Ebay.. as for install, I revieved mine about a month and a half ago but since I am a procrastinator I have yet to hook it up...I keep having to go to zellers to get refills on my bottled RO/DI :p go figure eh?

Hahaha, and I thought I was lazy.. haha j/k.

Zellers eh, I am thinking just in case I can't afford to get an RO/DI unit right away, then I would at least like to fill the tank with RO/DI from a store.

How much do you pay at Zellers Greg? (PM me if need be)

Thanks.

They charge you $10 deposit on the 5 gallon jugs and each fill is $4.50. You might want to check around at wallmart/co-op/superstaore etc to see what they charge. I just use zellers becuase there is one right behind my condo and it is easy to get to.

Cool.. thanks. I was just curious the price at Zellers. I'll look around..

Thanks again.

If you order the plumbing adapter (around $5 I think) then you can easily store the unit under the sink. It would have a spout on a line to let you fill up your container. You can also order extra line or buy the same stuff at HomeDepot. I have found that regular airline tubing is the same size & since it's not under pressure, it will work fine to fill your tank effortlessly from your sink, without having to lug heavy, splashing buckets of water around.

With your own RODI unit, you could attach a long airline tube to your tank, fill it up 3/4 of the way & mix your new sw right in your tank without any mess.

Going back & forth to buy RODI water will also use up lots of gas for that many trips. Then after spending all that money & effort, you'll still pay the same amount in the future for your own RODI unit.

Anthony

I always thought you need to at least save maybe 20% of your water when you move the tank, or else won't it start a cycle?? I thought you need the established water because it has the good bacteria in it?

Glad you mentioned that , as I thought this was a problem.. but wasn't too sure or not. Perhaps it would be a good idea to keep a few gallons of my water . ?

Thanks for bringing it up

I would transfer all your water over you can. You will lose some rinsing the sand and the rocks off, but save the rest for the new tank.

Sounds good.

Would it be a bad idea to go with all new sand and keep say a cup of the old to seed the new? Reason being is.... I like the look of new, clean white sand. (mine is all discoloured from algae and such..)

Nothing wrong with that at all. I might do a few cups to make the rest of the sandbed live faster.

I keep my sand white all the time with sand sifters, they keep it really nice and clean for me. I have a dragon goby, various other gobies, and a pistol shrimp.

That was going to be my next question. Other than snails (and preferablly not a fish) What could I use to keep the sandbed turned over nicely? What would be most efficient as well as most active ?

Why not fish?

Sea cucumbers, pistol shrimp. Starfish, but I dont recommend them in general, some people do. Sandsifting starfish will eat through your sandbed in that size tank too quickly and starve, IMO.

Im sure there are lots more just cant think of any right now.

I say not a fish because I already have 5. Please hold off on all flaming .. I know 5 fish is lots for 20g. I have had no problems, no territory problems, and no problems with paramaters.. just so we're all clear (also, why im upgrading :lol: )

I am probably maxed to a 45g tank already. But.. I may add one more fish, and I want it to be something colorful and active.. that's why I don't want a fish that will hide in the sand all the time :razz:

What would you personally recommend for moving the sand? I am leaning towards a cucumber myself.

What fish do you have? In my 50g I had 13 fish or so. It depends on the size of the fish, not the number. And it depends on your filtration, I ran that on a CPR BakPak II, and I ran an 18w UV sterilizer. No sump, no fuge at that time, and I had no algae problems with that equipment and bioload.

Coral Beauty, yellow tang, 2 clowns, firefish, 2 lyretail anthias, clown goby, scooter blenny, couple other gobies, and can't remember the other 2 right now.

Sand sifting fish don't hide in the sand at all, they hover around and scoop up the sand and sift it, my dragon goby is one of my favorite fish to watch! He is always out in the open, and it is great to watch him sift huge mouthfulls of sand and drop it everywhere (including my corals, I think he aims for them too!)

Wow 13 fish eh.. interesting.

The fish I have now are , 2 true percs, 1 yellow watchman (which i plan to get rid of soon.. but im not sure because I dont think I am doing BB after all that :rolleyes: I realized I would probably miss sand too much... and I do find it looks somewhat un-natural to some degree.. so sand stays, oh well.. I'll stay on top of cleaning it.

Anywhoo.. 2 true percs, 1 yellow watchman, 1 lawnmower blenny, and the flame (being the biggest by far in the tank) You barely ever see the YWG and lawnmower. Now that I think about it.. I may remove the blenny instead.. I never see the little guy! Like... hardly ever, once a week or so...

Compared to the bacteria on your LR, there is little bacteria in the water. I would go with Steve's recommendation that you can start with all new water.

That being said, you will have to acclimatize your fish to the new water.

Also, about scrubbing your rock to get rid of hair algae... Make sure you rinse it really, really well in pails of old tank water. You don't want stray bits of hair algae to get into your new system.

Also, if you have bubble algae, DO NOT scrub it off. Doing so will break open the bubbles and possibly release spores (or whatever it is that they use to reproduce) into your new system and you will have much worse bubble algae in the new system. No amount of rinsing will get rid of the spores (or whhatever.) I can give you more details on bubble algae removal if you need it, just ask.

Also, understock where ever possible to avoid algae problems down the road.

My lawnmower blenny is out and about all the time. Maybe when you re-aquascape you will have better luck. I leave a big area of open sand in the front middle of my tank for my fish to congregate in, just a couple small rocks for the gobies to purch on. My orange spotted watchman gobie took about 6 months before he decided he didn't need to hide anymore, so give it time.

Sure it is always possible to understock, but he primarily wants this tank for fish. I say load up, and stay on top of filtering the water. As long as the inhabitants are all peacefull too, they need a certain amount of swimming room, and an area to claim there own territory.

Lots of rock for bacteria, good skimmer, UV sterilizer maybe, and 15% weekly water changes. Monitor the nitrates and keep them reasonable, use RO water so you dont feed phosphates to the tank. This worked really well on my 50g with the above bioload.

Bev, when the time is nearing to setup the new tank.. I'll definitely be coming to you for BA removal advice! Thanks for your offer :)

Ever since I've had the blenny he has been very, very timid and shy. This is not typical lawnmower personality (from what ive read) The only reason I would remove him now is because it's easiest. I wouldn't be able to (not easily) remove him in the new system. He also does not eat prepared foods.. and I fear one day he will just starve to death on me.

Nope, if your moving rock over there is more than enuf bacteria to handle a immediate start up.. the amount of bacteria in the water is actually way less than that in the rock.

Steve

Bev, where are you getting this info from? When I was at a meating with Anthony Califo he chuckeled when some one said that at the meating and explained that a bubble algae is a single cell algae and cannot contain spores.. If you have some other info on this I would like to read it..

Steve

A quote taken from Reefkeeping Magazine's article "Bubble" Algae: Selected Descriptions, Controls and Comments, by Horge Cortez-Jorge Jr.:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

"Much has been said about the danger of liberating spores when popping the vesicles of bubble algae. This is particularly true for members of Order Valoniaceae, but even then, the vesicles are said to be a sporulant risk only when having reached at least a third of their full size. Even if spores escape when you botch the job of vesicle-removal ('vesectomy', anyone?), those escapee spores have to run the gauntlet of herbivorous filter feeders, filtration equipment, and the wild lottery of hitting a good, unoccupied spot to settle and grow. Those spores will eventually be released anyway if you don't remove the vesicles."

The whole article is quite interesting. I use a modified screwdriver method described:

"My weapon of choice ought to be a small stainless-steel flathead screwdriver, sharpened to wicked excess, and used to gouge out the offenders at the anchorage, even including a thin veneer of rock. Bare fingernails can be unreliable for removing certain 'bubble algae', and can invite injury and infection. I have seen small manicuring scissors, carefully bent in a curve, used to snip off vesicles 'at the root' -but this almost surely leaves the anchorage structure intact, and likely ruptures the vesicle."