I wouldn't worry about the live rock and substrate, as long as you can get some new salt and good water relatively quickly.

Did you try any buffers?

Whatever place sold you the tank and is keeping your deposit, they should apply that money for when you do buy the tank in the future. Mind sharing who that is?

I guess i don't lose the dposit, but i ...they will hold it, but because i won't have the money when we agreed there is a penalty fee...It's a acrylic place in the states...my uncle was dealing with them for me.

If he has high alk already, he SHOULD NOT add more buffer.

i was thinking for the low Ph.

yeah i was just going to add ph buffer...but i think what i might do is mix up some saltwater, Thanks again for the salt neal.....mix up some salt put the live rock in the bucket heat it powerhead it...and drain 90 or so percent of the old water and make up some new.....this sound like a good idea?
since all the worms are dying...even my urchin is dying...
whats weird is i made up some fresh saltwater to put the fishes in for neal to take...the water was fresh and went cloudy in like 10 minutes after the fish went in...(i know never put fish in fresh mix salt, but i was worried, figure it was better than the watter they were in....it was cloudy, but their breathing wasn't as labored...but it was so cloudy you could not see the fish looking into the top...
i am still kind of unsure what to do....plus i have to write part of my philosophy paper tonight...sheesh

also would it be safe to store the liverock in freshly made saltwater...if i put a powerhead and heater in there? since even the worms are dying in the main tank i probably can't hurt. Feather duster is still going strong as well as emerald crab....hermit has slowed and the urchin is lethargic...could be cause he poked me while i was trying to get the clows out and i dropped a rock on him :(

From The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

"A buffer is something that helps minimize pH changes in the presence of added acid or base. No buffer can completely stop the pH from changing when acid or base is added. The change in pH, however, is made smaller when an appropriate buffer is used."

Reading Low pH: Causes and Cures may be helpful in this situation:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

Remove the rock to water that is known to be safe. Make sure the new water is close to the same temp as the tank. Aerate the heck out of the new water and keep it aerated the entire time the rock is in the new water. Yes, also keep a heater in with the rock. You want to keep the water as close to tank temps as possible.

I'm thinking about what may have caused the sad meltdown of your tank:

1. You did not use a dechlorinator and livestock, including LR, are dying because of the chlorine.

2. The new saltwater you used had not been properly aerated (at least for a couple of hours, overnight is better) and heated, and the shock of the vastly different temps, pH, and other gases in the tapwater were enough to begin a cascade of dying organisms.

Whatever happened, it's a terrible shame to lose so much livestock all at once like this :cry:

I think it is the salt, he mixed a new batch and it went cloudy in 10 minutes, that is just wrong!

re meltdown
 

hey everyone
just thought i would add a good note
the clowns appear to be doing fine in my invert tank
weird though, when i started adding my tank water to the bag of water they came in to acclimatize, the water became less cloudy and material started to solidify
i dunno what this means..
i don't think that salt would start to solidify again..
unless
wait..what is ur salt content? maybe ur Hydrometer is out..
how much salt are u putting in per gallon?
Shoot..should've tested the water with my refractometer before dumping it?
maybe that has something to do with it..
maybe way too salty?
i dunno..
Hopefully my salt will work for ya
way too weird

yep basically whole tank is pooft....
i always add dechlorinator...i usually use a little more prime than i should...i'm paranoid...

i dunno....starting over basically....just mixed some new salt put it in tank, hopefully bacteria in the filters is ok, otherwise when i put liverock back in it's going to cycle over again....

hmm...

i dunno if my hydrometer is out, i assume no...i make the water to beabout 1.024-025, lfs tested with refract a month ago and it was a little off but not much, maybe is the high alk content....or maybe my calcium test is buggered and the purple up i added was too much...i tried best as i could to keep it in the 400-430 range....hopefully those little clowns will be happy for awhile.. :)
Thanks again neal....mucho mucho thanks

On another note my father said he would help me with a new tank purchase later in april so thats some good news...plus i am going to stock up on more essentials before i start....amazing how quick your stock depletes in an emergency...especially that damn prime....
I stirred up the sand bed a HUGE ammount when i did new water....but ammonia only reads just above zero or so....i have all the other water with the liverock in it....best i could do....hopefully this is going to work out...have a feeling those clowns with be with you neal for a good 6 weeks or more :)
hope that is okay...maybe the tank will cycle again/if it has tooo...by the next meet :) I'm buying the pizza for everyone...most assuredly.

Don't mean to rude but I gotta ask
You did use reef salt and not table salt right?

no i used kosher salt.....

yes i used reef salt....instant ocean..:)

Glad to hear some of your stuff will make it, and you are sticking with the hobby! A few months back I lost all my fish but 1, and 3/4 of my corals due to instant ocean's bad batch of salt, but mine was never cloudy. Most LFS took instant ocean off their shelves for a couple months. Apparantly they changed ownership or something and tried to cut costs, I dont know the whole story, just that I lost couple grand of stuff, and my tank is just starting to come back now. So I know what it feels like.

When you are ready, I have a colt, kenya tree, xenia, and by then maybe some zoos and green star polyps for you to restart your tank with, just PM me.

Looks like the only thing that will make it now is maybe my electric blue hermit and 1 snail...the other 6 died, the emerald died...mushrooms are toast and i dunno about the xenia....i did about a 95 percent water change, and the water is still cloudy, mind you that could just be from stirring up the aragonite...i put the live rock back in and all...guess we will see...even if it doesn't make it...i have base rock for the bigger tank :) unless it is somehow contamintaed or something.....even with the new water alk tested way way high...so i dunno

hopefully my clows will be ok at neals...they are probably thanking him and cursing me off ... :)

Bring some of your water in to the LFS and have them test everything for you, they do it for free.

Have to wait until thursday now, I have class or work until then....damn

Still cloudy though and alkalinity is way high even with new water...so i'm thinking something was in the substrate? I used different salt tested it and the alk of the tap water both were fine, until put into the tank....so i have to fidure out how to lower the alkalinity....

What is the best way to lower alkalinity? That seems to be the only thing i can think of that is wrong....found another dead bristle worm....so something is killing them ....

Here is a tapwater filter you can attach to your sink faucet. Works very well. Here is the link http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...ct_ID=ro-aptwp

Hope this helps.

Doug

Well damn...
 

Well, looks like my system went tits up....the electric blue hermit is still alive but, not much else....and the water smells now like uncured liverock smells, mind you that could be because everything died on it...or at least a lot died...

Should i just keep the liverock and everything in there and see if in the next few weeks it rights itself? Then if it doesn't, clean the liverock (not sure how i would do this) and use it in the new tank? with new substrate etc..?

I think you should drain all your water, take everything out, rinse out your sand thoroughly, fill back up with RO water and new salt (not the salt you have been using) and put everything back in. Then watch your levels, tank might cycle again, then when it is all good put your clowns back in, and start again slowly with adding livestock.

I used salt that neal gave me for mixing the new water so, it's not the salt.,..it had to be in the substrate....or in the cannister filter...but i cleaned it...
needles to say i am very confused

I don't have any ro water...i might have salt enough to do it..maybe...
think it will harm it until thursday or so...i have no time until then...have to be at work in half an hour...hmm...

if i can find a place to get 20 gallons or so of ro/distilled in the city i will look into it...i think i'm going to go with seachem salt next time here....i'm just worried i am doing this all for naught...and might be better off just using the liverock(if it's that anymore) in a new tank as Base rock...after it's cleaned...being on a student budget makes things difficult to try and hope things work out as opposed to knowing they will...if that makes sense. And since i am getting a new tank anyways....

the most expensive base rock i'll every buy i suppose :)
whats wierd is all the tests except alk test fine...even ph is about 8.3 but the alk tests so blue it's neon almost....light blue green is normal on my test kit...oh yeah will the liverock hurt anymore than it has just sitting there while i clean the substrate etc? Maybe give the tank a cleaning as well as the filter...can you clean them with bleach? making sure you rinse really well?

re tank
 

Clowns are doing fine
just thought i would let u know..and spread some good news
Neal

Yay my little fishes made it :)

thanks once again neal....most grateful.

Now if I can only figure out how i am going to do my next setup....can't decide wether to wait for a tank i can drill or not....can you run a sump without a skimmer for awhile or is this nec? can you get a drilled tank and then run some pipe and cap it off untill you can get a sump? just run it regular? or do you need i would guess you would need to cycle the tank with the sump....hmm...so many questions. I think my liverock is pretty much toast....at least mostly...member that nice fanworm? he is all out of the rock and toast...i'm gonna try one more time tonight and rinse all the substrate and do a water change....hopefully this might help....dunno...

You can drill the tank and add the sump later easily, you just cap the bulkheads. Definately go with a drilled tank if you can.

I would also get the tank drilled for a closed loop, do some searches on closed loops.

You don't need the sump to cycle the tank. But yes, you can run the sump without a skimmer for a while.

When planning your sump, dont put too much flow through it, use the closed loop for the majority of your water flow.

well the water has mostly cleared up...liverock is proably toast though...since i'm sure everything live on it died....so i have a tank full of maybe live most likely base rock....sheesh...fish only for awhile :)? Sure were a lot of dead bristle worms though.....i mean a lot. Plus the emerald crab died stuck in a wierd pose....i feel sorry for the little guys dammit. I'm thinking the water was contaminated from an emperor biowheel...i noticed when i put it on to run in some test water ...white crap came out of it....and the motor got hot...and stopped and started...i wonder if it leaked something....or the bacteria died because the wheel stops moving now and then...stopped for about 15 minutes i'd say....then started then stopped....then started then died....sheesh....

would a bunch of dead bacteria turn the wonder alkaline and white?

bloody thing is less then 3 months old...and i can't find my reciept....wonder if big als has a record of purchases?

I can't see how a dieing pump would make white stuff in your water. I would bring it back to Big Als and see what they say.

Have you mixed up new saltwater that is not from your old stock? I would get the rock in there, you will be amazed at what will grow back in a couple months, dont worry!

yep rock is in there and hopefully cycling...i think there should be sufficient decay on it to cycle the tank without extra ammonia source being added...i guess i could pee in the tank for good luck :)

I don't think it was the salt now...as i cleaned the substrate...as well as you can clean 30 lbs of already wet aragonite....took me about 3 hours...and i did not put the biowheel on this time....water did exactly what it did the first time i ever cycled a tank...tstayed cloudy for about a day...or less then cleared up...not totally yet, but defn a lot better than last time...i just have to check the alkalinity later on tonight...hopefully it is ok...if not...then either the tank or the substrate is contaminated or the canister i guess...because alkalinity tested okay when i mixed the salt up....hmm...

anyone know where i can get a stand for a 75-80 gallon tank? (standard)
I've got a few options and i want to thoroughly think them through before deciding....couple different size options avail to me from 45 - 120
think 120 is way to much for an apartment...although an 80 with a 20 sump...well....55 seems right but there are a couple fish i would like that need a bigger tank. So much to decide...since the company i was having make my tank gave me my deposit back....i'm happier :)


When i get the new tank, gonna have to buy some base rock from ya reefgeek

Is your apartment wood frame construction or concrete? I have ~130G of water in my wood frame construction apartment as we speak...so far so good *knock on wood*

concrete...landlord said it wwould be ok...i'm just paranoid...3rd floor and all...

You should be okay.
I live on the 4th floor. Wood frame.
180 with 33 sump and 45 top off in the "dining" area.
135 FW and 90 FW Discus tanks in the living area.
135 FOWLR in the bedroom.
Oh ya, and a 10g goldfish/feeder tank, if that counts.
Haven't heard any creaking yet.:wink:
Just make sure your system is resistant to overflowing/flooding as best can be and you shouldn't have anything else (read weight) to worry about, IMO.

Cheers:smile:,

do the people below you know whats above their heads :)
thats why i'm not sure about an external overflow....i've heard too many horror stories...

heh...first time i read your post i thought it said 135 FOWLR in bathroom....jeez interesting that would have been :)
whats your fowlr setup like...you use a sump?

The bathroom! Yes! Maybe I could set up a 10g in there.:lol:
There's a thread in the FOWLR forum on the 135 FOWLR. (That reminds me. I need to post an updated pic on that). It doesn't have a sump....yet. No room really and that tank isn't drilled. (I hear ya about the external oveflows. Been down that road and pulled over real fast). Plan on moving within a 1-2 years to ....guess what....a concrete building! I'll put a sump on it then.

BTW....sorry to hear about your ordeal. Kudows for stickin' with it.

Cheers:smile:,

Get the tank drilled instead of the overflow box, $20 a hole is well worth it.

I had a 110g and a 50g in an apartment second floor, and it was built in 1950. I just made sure I ran across the beams, not with them, and put the 110 against the wall where it is stronger. The 50 was in the middle of the room with no problems.

You're by the University right? Which building?

Also, bacterial blooms can cause cloudy water as well as Calcium percipitating out of the water.

just off gateway boulevard...melrose place...(no jokes)

I dunno what happened...but tank is clear now and on its way to a new cycle...
6 weeks and counting...(well maybe less) (Maybe More)

Anyone know where to get the plastic bracings around the top of aqauriums fixed?

you don't eat seafood in front of the tank in the dining area do you?

Seriously? You live like 3 blocks from me haha.

As for the trim, you usually have to take off the existing one and replace the whole thing (if it is in 1 piece that is).

Is the plastic an actual brace, or just for looks? If it is just for looks you dont have to replace it if you dont want.