Guys, post is about reefing impact. Not shark fins. That can go in another thread, we can post as many threads as we like :)

Thank you brad!

I see an overwhelming need to deflect in this thread. Instead of discussing, lots of "but look at that over there stuffs" . Ya, sharks and icebergs and deforestation and aliens all have impacts on reefs. THIS thread is about the reefing hobby and it's participants on reefs. Not global warming. Not raw sewage issues. Marine aquarium hobby impacts.

It's a good topic, no rights or wrongs, just throwing things out there. For me, the hobby is a bit selfish. I enjoy the tank as art in my house. Does that make me a bad person? Do I really care if someone thinks it does? Not really. But, I'm not going to pretend I don't have some impact, regardless of the size. And with all my reefing buddies around the globe, it's gotta count for something. Or maybe not? If the hobby never existed, would anything be different? Can't say it would or wouldn't. But thought it was a good topic for discussion instead of nothing.

Sorry Brad, I'll be good.
I do think you can enjoy this hobby with next to no ill effect on reefs in the wild, you just won't have those hard to get fish and ultra rare corals

Sure, but what about all the rock we take? The mining for materials to make salt? The cheap electronics that end up in the landfill? All impacts of the hobby.

Yes, we now have man made rock, dry rock, etc, but that all comes from somewhere. Salt. How much salt gets used a year globally for the hobby? And really, does that even matter? No idea personally :) But just thinking about what we use, how much we use and where it all ends up!

I've asked several times that this stay focused. Please stay on topic, tangents will be removed. There are lots of good arguments about lots of things, please start your own thread to discuss.

Rock I can't deny (I also don't know if it comes directly from live reefs or dead ones) I'm pretty good with electronics, at this point I only use leds and I still have a 10 year old Quiet One pump working lol, and haven't done a true water change in a year. But we will always have an impact on nature as long as we take from it and don't return anything, and that's why I think it got so far off topic is because this isn't a simple yes no question. Forget the electronics going to the dump, think about the emissions going into making that quiet one pump, the emissions into transporting that pump, the electricity powering that pump (coal power where I come from)the dump is the simple part of the equation...... oh and dumps are huge emitters of green house gasses.

Ya, and that's the thing, This isn't a question looking for a yes or no. It's just a thought process. We all do what we do, for various reasons we do it. But do we ever consider how we impact what we love, doing what we love?
Rock. I think they use it to build roads. Thousands of tons of it. So does our hobby then have any appreciable impact?? Dunno. Likely not. ORr does it? So many factors to consider, so many degrees of separation and different ripple effects.

All I'm doing is giving it more thought today than I did last week. Will that change anything I do? Dunno..

Everything we do has an environmental impact. The question you should ask is whether reef keeping is contributing to something that may causing irreparable damage to the earth (thus the discussion on global warming would be valid :razz: ) As long as the collection of materials and animals is done in a sustainable manner I don't really have a problem with it.

The reason I downsized my tank, and thought seriously about getting out of the hobby (I almost succeeded) was because the energy consumption (carbon footprint) of my aquarium probably equaled the combined usage of every other aspect of my life.

Ok, but I'm guessing rock harvesting is not sustainable. How long to have new rock self create? Really long time, I think. Fish, coral, yes, I think that can be managed sustainably. Other stuff, no clue really.
But I guess that is my question, are we causing irreversible harm?

Also, pretty sure my Jeep has a bigger carbon footprint than my tank :)

I guess that's all you can do is be thoughtful in your decisions. Humans will always be detrimental to their environmentsl, but as a personal consumer I try to do it in the most efficient way.

In the grand scheme of things I don't think my grandkids will blame me and my fish tank for destroying the oceans, so I don't think it's a huge impact and the more we push for sustainable caught fish/corals or even better bred fish/corals, properly mined rock, more power efficient equipment the less impact we will have. Also frag swaps and buying locally have got to be more utilized, why don't we have a Canadian MACNA!!!

On the rock topic, I think that there is less and less of the 'live rock" taken out of the wild so to speak. We now have tons of other options available, aquacultured rock, man made rock etc. As hobbyists become more aware and educated wild rock will probably become a thing of the past in the hobby.
I myself do not have wild live rock in my tank.

My biggest pet peeve of the industry as a whole is the insistence of lfs's to keep getting in known hard to keep alive fish, moorish idols, orange spotted file fish etc. I don't mind if an expert reefer has done their research and wants to special order something, but getting in 10 or more in a shipment just to sell something "rare" is not right.

I still have all real rock in my tank :)

Keep in mind, often the LFS simply gets what is sent. I've seen stuff come in where the LFS is p'ed because it won't live. They order 50 fish, 30 are available on day of shipping, the supplier fills the rest of the box with whatever they have on hand.

Back to the original question..

Do we help.?

I can't think of one possible reason how anyone in this hobby can begin to say 'they help'. Short of returning all the inhabitants of their tank back to a SUITABLE location or origin with the remote chance it will survive and reproduce Which its self is a ridiculous scenario ......You... Don't .... Help.

Do we hinder..

Ummm ya we do. There is zero benefit to reefs to remove any inhabitants for the hobby trade. ...None, zippo, nada.

In my eyes it is black and white... I'm not a granola eat'n tree hug' earth muffin. I do this for my own pleasure end of story.... For people who have taken steps to populate their tanks with tank raised this, fragged that, farmed blah balh blah, good for you.. But believe me any neub that is inspired by your tank and decides to take the plunge into this hobby won't have the relationships built up to be able to do the same.... End result off to the LFS they go....

And I can't really come to any different conclusion.

Without the hobby there probably wouldn't be so many scientists working on captive breeding projects because they'd be so far behind in husbandry knowledge and equipment.

That's all I got.

Without the hobby demand, there would be no need for captive breeding..

Um, no. They are researching captive breeding for the end result of being able to re-establish wild populations. Collection for aquariums isn't nearly the only reason they would want to captive breed fish. I'm not just talking about aquarium fish.

Where did the wild populations go? Oh, right :)

Well, that explains it... Kind of hard to explain colours to people that only see black and white...

Actually a few of us local reefers were talking about harvesting methods used to get live rock. One of the guys used to live in Indonesia and the locals where he lived at the time would walk out into the ocean grab, drag and lift the rocks then bring them to shore and use sledge hammers, drills, jack hammers and even explosives to break up big chunks of rock to sell to buyers as for them it was and still is an income for them. This alone is a huge negative impact on the ocean.

They do destroy huge chunks of the ocean floor to supply demand however practises are changing and many areas he said are going to sustainable methods and more and now more Salt water hobbyists are using existing rock from professional and home aquariums making the rocks harvested from the ocean less and less viable.

Also making natural rocks less viable even more is the creation of rocks tailored to your needs it is very expensive but more and more people are liking the idea of tailor made rocks over natural that is a positive impact on the ocean for sure

I think we actually help the reef more than hinder.

Yes we take stuff out so most people would see that as a negative, but if it wasn't for hobbyists the reefs would be even worse off.

Without us, there wouldn't be as much research done or people that care about what happens in the reefs, there would be no attempt to understand captive breeding, propagation and reef rehabilitation.
There are now wild reef preserves to try and conserve habitat, would anyone ever have even cared if this hobby didn't exist? Its under the ocean, out of sight out of mind as the saying goes.
How many marine biologists/scientists would not be here today if there had been no saltwater hobby?

Hold on for a second...drops mic, walking away putting his rose coloured glasses on .... Oh ya that's better.

Good Day:

I haven't thoroughly weighed out the evidence whether we have a negative effect of the reef environment but I believe we affect the environment.

I believe the biggest effects to the reef environment are overfishing, pollution (including agricultural runoff) and climate change.

For a look at the change of the ocean environment and tropical reefs the Netflix documentary "Mission Blue" documents the change of several reefs over 40 years.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2004304/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Michael

Good answer to a different question, but not this one :)

I strongly disagree. It is very cut and dry. We are having discussion because we try to justify our hobby and our burden on the environment. It's not good what ever way you slice it.

Ok, I stated it wrong. Yes, I believe there is a cut and dry answer. We take, we give nothing back. But I don't think we're going to get consensus on that among hobbyists, for varying reasons :)

Who wouldn't want cheaper fish and corals and so becaus we consumers demand that stores import more in order to make up that loss margins therefore taking more and more livestock out of the oceans because we have devalued their lives.

Hey, I just want to add to this discussion, Merry Christmas everyone ! *runs and hides*

May the Force be with you!

I don't think he's into Star Trek..

Every animal "takes" something. I think you need to get over this (or not, it's up to you). How many of us would have a job if someone didn't need to "take" something.

People who "took" something from the Mariculture industry provided jobs to an impoverished area and added value to the reefs. Try a few Google searches to see whats going on.

Same goes for rock, sand or whatever... as long as it is done in an environmentally sustainable way. There's no way for me to know if this is the case, since I buy most things through several middle men, but again adding value to the reefs will encourage local governments to make good conservation decisions.

Hope that isn't directed at me! I take, I know that. I'm ok with it :)

When/if all the reefs are gone and the oceans are in collaps due to changing enviromental conditions ect, the advanced hobbiests , the Public Aquariums of the world will be the only chance we have to perhaps rebuild. (Before this point all coral imports will long be stopped one would imagine and the basic hobbiest like me will be few and far)
Maybee only in this future could the advances/actions of the hobby today be seen as benificial.. but today surly not.

Saving the worlds coral reefs from extinction by having an aquarium in your living room might be setting the bar a bit high :x-mas:

I didn't want to say that. But ya. Not going to happen :)

Not sure if this was a reply to my post ?
I doubt that any home based reef will make a difference short or long term hence the remark towards public aquariums ��

I would say we hinder to be clear ��

Still not going to happen. A, the volume isn't there. B, logistically not workable. C, the reefs all died due to other environmental issues, so putting our captive corals back in the ocean will just kill them.

This industry is a looooong way from being sustainable. Greed rules the day. If you can pull it off the reef to make a dollar today, who cares about tomorrow. That's the thought process of many of the exporting nations.

Yes, when compared to other factors, the impact of the hobby is relatively small. Unfortunately, it's the other factors that will have the ultimate say in the future of it. Bottom line is that if you remove animals from an ecosystem will have an impact. Period.

A lot has been said about removing animals from the reef can impact the reef. I agree with that.
More overall, the stuff that we are dumping can also impact the environment. A lot of people are using medicine to treat their animals and just dump the waste water directly into the sewage or worst directly to storm drain without neutralizing the water first. That can impact the environment.
Also the waste water from our water change can impact the environment. It may have some stuff (live or not) that may not be native to our local environment. Dumping them into sewage and/or storm drain may introduce them to our local environment.