I like butterflies.

That explains a lot. Thanks

Put it this way. I don't do it to make money, I do it for the hobby and also to pay for the cost of hobby. No profiting and I trim my colonies.. very expensive.. for example. I'm in a townhouse, my hydro was 350 for the last 2 months. Vs 170 without tanks..
Plus I'm a hoarder.. I fully understand that if your doing it for business, then register..i have over 20k worth of equipment and corals.. I know I will never see the money again which is expected in a hobby.. but it is nice to get a bit of help.. i ran for 3 years without selling a piece of coral.

And don't get me started on dead fish and corals I have lost..
Face it vendors are vendors, hobbyist are hobbyist..

Ask my credit card how sore his stripe on his back is lately lol..
:)
I've got 500 gallons in my house.. had a minor crash in my 200gal display. Lost 3k worth of corals... what did I do? Restocked and now getting them healthy before I put it back into my tank..

have a good day guys. This thread is boring haha

I find it pretty entertaining that one ignorant person can stir up so much s**t. Its never been an issue until one person says something. And odds are it was probably that clown that just left the forum. If you dont like it don't buy it

Oh come now, why else would we ever hit refresh? I think controversy and heated debate is awesome for keeping eyes glued to the board. Not sure why it's so frowned upon :D

On that note, who's the smurf?

totally agree with you albert. I don't frown upon it at all :mrgreen:

Nope, wasn't him. It's someone you're probably friends with :)

<___< It's not me! I swear!

Didnt see that coming lol. But I have a hard time believing that

This is entertaining :)

I know who it is, I've talked to him about it and he won't do it again. But he's an active member that wanted to post an opinion without backlash.

the capitalist agenda..

you should see my P&L statement for this hobby. If I could register and consider corals as inventory and claim amortization based on coral loss and fish, plus the cost of supplies, I would be a laughing stock.

But hey, my corals are pretty.

FULLY AGREE!!!!!!!!
if you don't like the hobby and don't like the cost and certainly find yourself complaining alot.. then get out of it..


IMO

LOL BRAD, cmon, hang him out to dry !!!!
Lol ;) you better be coming to next swap.. we should all do a mod fund to get their a$$ out here haha

Wow
 

Wow.... The guys that buy huge colonies for say $100 and break it up into say 20 frags @ $10 a piece aren't making much of a profit AND it's the only way a lot of us get corals.... What's the problem?

1. Laissez-faire

2. The knowledge which is freely given on these boards is more valuable than the corals we try to charge each other for

3. I would be inclined to start a coral bank, ie. established hobbyists can have a frag of whatever coral for zero, in return if my tank crashes you give me a frag back to restock. Kind of like insurance

4. It is a collegial hobby until money gets involved

Incidentally I'm sitting near a tank with 6 BTA's, bought one BTA from Samw something like 8 or 10 years ago, if I sold 5 of them for the original purchase price I guess I earned 25 bucks per year. Woohoo!


Just my view.

Okay let me pose this question:

At which point does it become profiteering? Is it when the $$$ earned extends beyond the original value of the coral? Is it when the sale price is inflated to market value? Is it when a coral is parted out to recover costs? Etc, etc, etc... Seems pretty gray to me.

Come on, so now were able to have a big mouth and be a pussy? What is this world coming to. Id love to know who decided to hide there identity before making a post. Thats just a coward. Whoever it is should fess up so we can all tell him how we really feel. Just my opinion but thats about as pathetic as it gets

I would argue the line is crossed when you full well know your taking advantage of a fellow hobbyist.

Let me give you an example;

Seller A buys zoas that lack a specific trade name from LFS. They then proceed to name said coral themselves to improve its ability to sell (lets face it, named stuff goes for more EVERY time).

This seller then posts these zoas for sale, priced per polyp at $35 exclaiming what a major deal these are. He/she goes on to state that if you don't buy now the price will increase DOUBLE to $75 per polyp.

Seller A is pretty much saying these are 50% off at the moment indicating they are heavily reducing the price to be an AMAZING person and sell you some unreal coral a wicked deal!

Sadly Seller A probably bought that unnamed zoa rock from a local LFS at around $50, if all 10 polyps sell @ $35 then $300 profit has been made or 600% profit.

That is personally what I consider profiteering

Hmm, while I don't necessarily agree with the ethics of your example, I also don't think that's a strong case against profiteering. Where do you draw the line? 100%? 200%? When someone goes from being 'dude in a basement' to 'dude in a basement with a business license"? What if we extended that last frame to 'dude who has a storefront'?

Take Steve Tyree for example. All strikes against him, and I may be going out on a limb here, but that guy REVOLUTIONIZED the reef hobby. His 'LE' gimmick reinvigorated the entire coral scene well beyond "OMG, Fiji Aquaculture is so dope!" (and trust me, this was the state of the hobby circa 1999-2003). And he did it straight off the back of your example. I'd argue that this sort of, let's call it entrepreneurial, spirit is exactly what keeps the hobby healthy. Eagle eyed hobbyist spots a gem at LFS, sensationalizes it and drives a frenzy, creating a secondary market. I see no harm in this. The coral has already proven its worth to the original benefactor (the LFS that sold it at their expected markup) and now there is a new and unique strain of coral that will be hosted and propagated by steadily increasing numbers of hobbyist. Fast forward six months and the market value of the coral will steadily decline as supply exceeds demand. For most people, getting a nice coral isn't a matter of having money on hand, but patience.

Anyway, about to flood a tank, I'll be back to stir this up more in case y'all want to continue the dialogue.

This takes me back to when I was collecting hockey cards when I was a kid in the 80s. Need 'em, got 'em, need 'em. I traded and collected some of the best...but alas I didn't retire at 14 because my mom accidentally threw them out with the trash.:twised::twised:
Anyhoo, deep down, most of us are just collectors wanting the newest prettiest thang, an addiction that we must sustain by selling something else. We can all agree there's no problem with that. Even if one profits, it all evens up in the end with expenses - equipment upgrades/losses/unsold inventory.
And for those who are in it solely for profit, avoid the public shaming and just get a business license (cost you 2 frags), there you're legit...and get paid in cash so you can pursue another hobby, advanced creative accounting.

Corals
 

Zoaelite, that's right, but you don't run across people like
That very often. I've been on this forum for a couple years and I usually buy corals off the same few people. Maybe they make 5$ or something off me but just in their time alone doesn't make them a profit. But sometimes there is a few people that find a really good deal and take advantage of it. But we wouldn't get a frag of that coral unless they were selling it.

Lol I love this thread a coral is worth what some one will pay
If you don't sell a palys or ZOA say rastas or Darth maul at 30-50 pp the market gets kiled and every ones are worthless so if some one gets a bunch on a rock and sells them for 100 pp if that's what the online price is I don't see the problem they got lucky lol ?

Lots of different views and points in this thread. And still not locked. That in itself is pretty good.
So let's recap. Selling something to make a bit of money back to feed hobby=good.
Selling parts of large piece you bought to recoup some of the cost=good.

How we doin' so far?

Selling off entire contents of tank because you're done=good. Got it.

Selling excess growth that happens to buy the next few buckets of salt=good.

Buying $200 frag, growing said frag and selling multiple frags for $200=good.

I'm on a roll

Buying a cool coral at store and chopping into pieces to flip a profit, repeatedly=bad

Having a coral farm in your basement to pay mortgage=good

Am I on track here?

I have to pretty much agree with all of the above. Where it gets grey, from a Canreef standpoint, is which of the above conflicts with the interest of paying sponsors (those are the greedy LFS bastards we've read so much about).
My job is to sort through the grey area and determine if/when and who is meeting this criteria. We went from a almost no frag sales policy to our current one, which somewhat conflicts with sponsors, but is overall beneficial to members and the hobby in general.
If I feel someone is jeopardizing our income/potential income, therefore the fate of the board, I need to step in and disallow such sales. That's the board way.
Other than that, if you can make a buck, not screw someone and everybody goes home happy, have at 'er!

well said brad and i even had a good laugh lol

Lmao I like this

I don't understand the issue.

I use to buy tanks from people for the price they were asking.

I'd bring it home, clean it, repaint the stand and then sell it for more.

The person buying has the option to buy mine or any others on kijiji.

What's wrong with flipping things for money?

There's a tv show about how people do this with antiques now, why would that be any different?

Its frowned upon Ias its considered riping some one off
But if there willing to pay then that's what its worth

You're hardly ripping someone off given that you've invested your time and effort into finding and housing the coral, which assumes some small amount of risk unto itself. Maybe the coral dies, spread parasites/disease to your system, doesn't sell, maybe you get hit in traffic on your way to or from the LFS, etc, etc. Time is not free :)

For the record, I've never done this, but I have friends that do and I see zero issue with it. But that's just IMO.

*(truth be told, I feel as though I SHOULD be doing this... I too have a mortgage to pay).

Absolutely nothing. I've done the same thing. But from a purist hobbyist standpoint, roaming the LFS for things to chop and make money goes against the grain. I wouldn't do it, but not saying you shouldn't. Just not what I would consider "hobby friendly". This is, of course, only my opinion.

I have a dual role. I have to manage a board with advertisers that are directly competing with their customers, and I'm a hobbyist with less interest in making "profit" from the hobby than I used to have.

Not saying it's bad, some of my good friends do it. I know some guys chopping up acans right now to sell single heads. Good for them, I guess. They just can't do it here (I'm watching, guys :)).

Let's face it, nobody is going to get rich selling frags. The sheer cost of supporting things and the likelihood of failure is overwhelming. Ya, some people get away with it for a little while, but "profit" is an over-rated term :)

Nice. You got a clone from the very first RBTA on Canreef as far as I know. :) Since I had a crash last year, my RBTA has shrunk and I was going to post a msg asking to see if someone had a clone of mine from over the years for sale as it has sentimental value. LOL. There should be hundreds of my clones out there now over the 10-12 years. :)

Ever come down to Vancouver? :)

Even if you don't own a tank and have a mobile chopping bin, you're not really ripping anyone off (unless you sell some tourist green milli for a grand). If you buy a $60 colony and make $50 on chopping it, not a lot of ripping off involved. I don't agree that anyone needs to pass on a good deal they got to someone they're selling to. Money is nice, make what you can. But be cognizant of the effect on the hobby, the market and potential future friendships. Find balance, be happy, make a couple bucks, grow some coral.

Here Brad, you dropped this; p.

Totally agree ripping someone off - selling s frag for more then you paid for the colony

How embarrassing..:razz:

One of my first "profit" deals in the hobby.

Desperate woman calls and needs to move next day. Wants to sell me the full system she has. I have little money. She says whatever I have in my pocket. I have 187bucks. I buy system, 120g tank, large oak stand/canopy, sump, 200# live rock, fish, gear, etc. I made $1500 after selling the parts. Proud moment for me in the hobby.

My last "profit" deal.

Bought a local setup for $400. Tall 115g tank, meh stand, 80 pounds rock and a huge puffer fish. Takes me hours to tear it down and load the van. Drive to the LFS to give him my scraps. It's his Bday, his favorite fish is this puffer. I give him the fish. Had nowhere to store rock, gave it all away. Find out the tank at a locla school just broke and the kids are sad. I donate tank and stand. After I clean it. I'm into this for days now. Lots of gas.
After all is said and done, I'm out nearly $500 and a couple days worth of time. I own the heater still. Not sure it works.
Kids loved the tank. Another proud moment in the hobby.

Did I rip anyone off in either scenario? I don't think so. Everyone was happy, there was some money made, some money lost, some lives made better. Isn't that what it's all about?

I would like more money though...

Huh? Okay, let me paint a scenario for you:

You go to a store, they have a colony of "Freaking Ultra Cornbread Kickstarter Eagle Rage Superman" Palys. Owner of the store doesn't know/doesn't care what it is as long as he gets his $75.00.

You buy said coral, realizing that its market value is $150/pp.

Do you:

A. Sell the Palys for the $5/pp that it works out to, tanking not only the value of the coral, but immediately devaluing the collections of anyone who purchased these Palys at market value?

B. Sell for market value and pat yourself on the back for being at the right place at the right time.

C. Do the manly thing and leave it at the store to let someone more pious to sort out.

I mean.. Look at it this way, Lottery winners pay a couple bucks for their tickets...

Option b would be my pic this is the exception to the rule its kind of a dick move to sell something sat 5 pp when others have to pay 150

I'm taking option B as well.