ultra miracle mud lol

ill buy some lol

C'mon guys, clean up your act and quit hijacking.

(get it? Clean up? Vacuum? lol)

Good for cleansing. Miracle Mud

I can't answer the thread poll it says sanbed. Is that like samatch? Cus I like ham samatches.

I voted yes. Although I did vacuum my sandbed and it didn't help. I didn't have a successful tank until I got rid of it altogether. The amount of detritus that laid on the sandbed (I had the whole CUC, snails, crabs, sea cuke etc) was ridiculous. Eventually everything was dead except for the crabs and I ended up having to remove the sandbed because it created a dinoflagellate problem.

Basile, that is incorrect.
A Deep Sand Bed in a reef aquarium is like a separate organism in itself. In Canada it is almost impossible to properly construct, populate and re-populate one with the appropriate organisms.
You can run your aquarium however you like of course, but your statement above does not apply to a sandbed that will help process wastes in the long run.
If you don't maintain your substrate, you will be dealing with excess nutrient problems eventually.
By maintaining I mean manually removing any detritus buildup.

I am not trying to hash it out with you. You created a thread stating you wanted to put to rest the idea that maintaining your sand bed is for the clean freaks and not at all necessary. And I personally feel that the posts you made earlier were very misguided for those who are actually seeking some real answers. Most specifically those who are new to the hobby.

You are correct that there are many people who have had great success with never touching there sand bed and never worrying about it. Which seems to be your situation. And in no way am I trying to say that your destined for failure if you do not. A sand bed can indeed be just as efficient at processing nutrients as your live rock. But that is only until that sand bed begins to clog up and fill up with debris, bacterial flock, tugor etc. Just look at the photo posted from the person who just cleaned there bed after 3 years. And eventually it is going to fill up wether it be in months or years depending on so many factors. Your army of cuc can process all they wish but the end result of there processing is just more debris. Some how all that debris needs to be removed no? It's not a cycle that can indefinitely go on, eventually there will be more to process then can be processed in a closed system. Eventually there will be a breaking point. And that doesn't necessarily mean your tank will crash and game over, but all the sudden we need to start looking into additional means to cope with what our tank now struggles to process on its own and you have helped to create a very delicate balancing act of nutrients. That can in fact crash your system, or give you so many headaches trying to fix or remedy a person could end up wanting to quit. So let me ask you, do you incorporate the use of macro algae? How well do you feel it grows in your system? Do you feel its use is necessary to keep your nutrients where you want them? How about gfos? Do you use? Need to use to keep levels in check? How about nuisance algae? Ever have any problems with that?

So I am sorry, I would rather people new to the hobby would be able to find deeper information to help them determine how they wish to run there system rather then a lets take a vote so we can tell all those people who clean there sand it stupid and don't bother. Go out and buy an army of cuc and let nature do what nature does. Completely misguided information IMO. It's no surprise the forums are filled with posts from new users crying for help because they can't get there algae out breaks under control or there nutrient levels are off the charts. Obviously a sand bed is not the only issue or culprit but I don't think advising those against maintaining aspects of there system that should indeed be maintained is a great idea. And I'm am sorry if I misinterpreted your intention of the post if I am.

Sand can be a great addition to a system and may even be a requirement based on the livestock you keep. And there are many who would refuse not to have sand. But if used, it needs to be maintained. Just as everything else we use. If not maintained it will inevitably break down.

Fwiw. I don't currently have sand. A dish for my wrasses to sleep is all. Even that gets vacuumed. But I personally did not want the additional work load of maintaining a sand bed the way I feel I would need to maintain it and or any issues that could result from keeping one. I have no cuc. No nutrient issues. No macro no gfos. No nuisance algae. I am in control of my nutrient levels via my maintenance, and my feeding the system and my overall bio load. My system does not suffer because I am missing some integral ecosystem or lack of biodiversity. Many people run there systems differently and we all can have great success using many different means to do so. So there is no right or wrong way or your way or my way. But there are some fundamentals that I think should be employed by all, or at the very least advice given especially to new users that properly maintaining the system wether it be a sand bed, or skimmer, is the most valuable tool you yourself can provide to the system.

But just IMO : )

Pretty well thought out opinion. After the sludge removal today, and the second half next month, I will be vacuuming my sand bed.

I am going to save that picture you posted so I can show my wife and say see this is why we cannot have sand! Lol

Too bad you're not local, you could have the barrel full to show her!

I would not want the responsibility of disposing of that afterwards. What if I spilled some on myself. Gross! Pics will do, but thanks for the offer! Lol

If I had sand, I'd vacuum it. If I had egg crate, I'd remove it :mrgreen: and post pics!

One of the problems with sand bed "CUC" is that they also add to your bio-load.

You have to be dumb to have egg crate. You didn't seem dumb when I met you :)
Me, I'm dumb. And lazy, so removing it isn't going to happen.

Chicken farmers must laugh like hell when they go buy light diffusers. 'Hey frank I'm headin ta town to get som more EGG CRATES for the rumpus room' bahaha ha. Even better when the guy beside him at the store buying "egg crate" says he's putting it in his aquarium. :lol:

But hey not that there's anything wrong with that

I will also be removing my sand bed in about a day or two in my display tank. Been getting lots of red slime and I cannot attribute it to being caused by anything else (played with lighting, and havent fed my tank in 2 weeks). Will also post a pic of what my sandbed looks like in a pail after I take it out. Probably looks worst than yours A.

Sorry to use your circumstance as an example, and in no way am I directing anything to you, but your post is in no way out of the norm. Which makes me wonder why more people are not asking questions as to why? Sure allot of good questions are asked all the time but allot are not. And sometimes there is some bad answers provided wether intended or not. Why do so many of us have to deal with these sudden outbreaks or ongoing issues we struggle to control as a result of nutrient levels and or nutrient imbalances within our systems? Is that sand bed a major contributing factor? Is lack of proper maintenance of such fuelling our nutrient levels, fuelling our phosphate levels? Is cleaning that sand important? Is it better to leave it alone? Should we be concerned about such terms as biodiversity, or ecosystems? Should we be promoting more? Less? Which forms of life should we try and nurture and which should we try and eradicate? Which are considered irrelevant? Are we really just stuck with excessive amounts of phosphates within our systems? Where do they even come from? Do we only add them from external sources? Can our system create them internally? Do we have a phosphate problem? Why are they not detectable when we test and what does that mean? Why are they detectable and what does that mean? Do our tests even provide us with clear answers? Are there phosphates our test kits can not even measure? If so are they important? Is employing such tactics as macro algaes, gfo's, sponges, filters, carbons, and the like, just something we are all going to be forced to employ to deal with an excess of these nutrients? As such are these nutrients in excess inevitable and unavoidable and we must find means to maintain these excesses? Or can a healthy and thriving system free of any nuisances and excess nutrients be achieved without the need of these? Should we be excited when we have created the environment where macro algae thrives and we regularly have to harvest for export? Certainly for those wanting a nutrient rich environment for whatever reason, but for the typical reefer, should we be asking instead if we want to create an environment in the first place where we actually can steadily grow macro algae and the like? Should we have to choose the livestock we can keep or need to keep based upon what stock controls what nuisance? Are any practices we employ or lack there of contributing to such issues? How we feed? Do we over stock? Do we under-maintain critical aspects of our systems such as our sand beds? Over maintain? What about our live rock, are we creating an environment for it to function at its peak efficiency? Does it even matter if it does? What about the choices in the water we use?What about equipment choices? And which are important and which are not? Does any equipment we use aid in the increase of nutrients? What about our cuc? Do we have enough, do we need more? What role do they even play and how can we use them to our benefit? Are they even necessary? Do we put to much faith in them? Not enough?
What active roll are we playing ourselves by the choices we make and actions we take or do not take to determine our level of nutrients? And can we even be in control? Or are we at the mercy of the nutrients within our system and we must just find ways to cope?

I'm not gonna pretend to answer any of those with my opinions. And I'm not a sand hater and I am not opposed to nutrient control via anyway that works for an individual. And I am not trying to create any divisions between the ways people choose to run there system, as I firmly believe there is no right or wrong way of getting there. So my intention is not to offend anyone. But I also feel that excess nutrients and nuisances can also easily be avoided and kept in check under most circumstances, if we weren't so confused about some of the most basic and simple aspects of basic husbandry that can and do indeed play a massive role in the health of our system. Like cleaning a sand bed. Instead we advise a new user who are experiencing nutrient issues to go and grow macro algae and buy buckets of gfo or this chemical works wonders for this unwanted guest, then give them the thumbs up to add more fish, and feed there corals some more. When more then likely they could have avoided the need to do so from the start if they wernt so damn confused about seemingly simple and basic fundamentals and practices. Either way, I just want those who may have similar questions to those posted above or any questions for that matter to start looking for real answers. And to not just get an answer. But to find out why that is the answer.

Like all things in the reef, I am not 100% sure that it is the sandbed thats causing the red slime, however it is the best guess I got. Removing it will allow me to rule it out, however I have many customers who have had red slime and removing the sand bed typically rectifies their problem. Personally, I also believe it is just a ticking time bomb as you I can see the crap it carries. I siphoned out maybe 2 cups full of sand and the water that came with it looks pretty murky. As to the contents of the murky water, I do not know as testing it will likely result in ambiguity considering the countless particulates that may be in there.

Another possibility of the red slime may be my dry rock but not as likely so, the only logical thing to do is to remove what is most likely the cause of an issue. I am pretty picky as to what I add in my tank, and other than salt, fish, coral, frag plugs, food, dust, gfo, carbon and cheato, there isnt anything else that im adding into the tank that I am not aware of. I check the tds meter on my RO system as well frequently and it reads 0. Yes. I also double check it with a handheld one as well.

Nobody has the perfect formula in maintaining a flourishing reef which is partly what makes this hobby so appealing. In order to advance in this hobby, we have to take a scientific approach (and by all means im using this word VERY loosely). By this, I mean to try your best and account for all variables and to not leave anything to chance. I have never added any live rock (other than bits and pieces stuck on corals that I later remove) so I know, relatively, what is in my tank. Now im not saying I can account for everything in my tank as that would be impossible considering how diverse a reef aquarium is. So the best tool is to just to try and remove one part of the system at a time until something clicks and solves your problem.

Removing the sandbed may also only temporarily solve my issue, but again, its all just trial and error. :surprise:

I think this should be good for 2 new polls...:razz:

You're just in a mood today, huh?? lol

I suspect it will. As I mentioned in one of my posts, the algae on my front glass required cleaning at least daily, often more. After removal of the sand yesterday, so, 30 hours ago, I have 0 algae on my glass. This is how my tank used to run in the first 2 years. I think the sand is a sink for garbage and one day it starts giving back. For a time reference, this portion of sand I removed was replaced about 2 years ago.
My new opinion is yes, it's a ticking bomb.

Again, I'm sorry quoted your situation. I assure you my post was not directed at you. It was right there so I used it. But I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. My post was not to offend anyone or tell anyone there doing something wrong. My intent was to get people thinking. I myself tried to do not allot more then just ask a bunch of questions. There are many people in this hobby who don't have the experience as you have or this person has and there are always new people coming into the hobby. And I am sure we all can agree that this hobby has just as much bad information available as there is good information available. And I sure don't have all the answers. And I'm sure either do you or the next guy. So my intent of the post was to make anyone who actually has some questions or issues they are struggling with to actually find some real answers. And why those answers are the way the are. There is so much great data and information available to those who invest the time to look, but I guarantee not everyone is going to even know what questions to ask. And I'm sure there are allot who are just asking the wrong questions all together and getting the wrong advice or answers. And I agree that there is no perfect formula but as you mentioned regarding a scientific approach there are basic facts and principles that will apply to everyone. There is so much information available to us if in fact we know what to look for and question as to why those things are the way they are.

In reference to your post now, I have no idea if your sand bed is the culprit or not either and I agree trying to rule that out first seems like a good place to start. But the fact remains the same. You do indeed currently have a nutrient issue or are experiencing a nutrient imbalance. If in fact you can grow and harvest your cheato for export on a regular basis then that alone is fact you have an excess of available phosphates. Which of coarse may not be an issue since the means of export are in place. But the red slime is clearly an indicator that there is something there for it to be taking advantage of. And I agree,
Probably the sand bed. But the dry rock could also be the culprit as you pointed out. That dry rock may indeed be housing bound inorganic phosphates. Hard to say. Was the rock a recent addition before the red slime? Maybe you can try and trouble shoot both and do a somewhat crude test for potential phosphate problems in either. If either is housing some serious inorganic phosphates you can ground up to fine powder a sample of each and add the sample to rodi and test for phosphates ( test each separately lol) when you grind it up you break down any inorganic phosphates into orthophosphates which if present to any significant amount your test kit should pick it??

You know Bradley!! You started this......

Wholly Mackerel :surprise:
This thread just gets better and better

I'm gonna stick my neck out here and put in my 10 cents

I haven't touched my sandbed for over 6 months and don't plan to do so anytime soon

If your sand gets mucked up, siphon some of it out and be done with it, but keep your removal to the 1/8" level
If it's clean, leave it alone
Why remove all the critters ?

Don't siphon into dsb's past the 1/4" level and risk exposing hydrogen sulphide
Maybe my measurements are a bit off, so do your own research

I'd add more, but I'll bite my tongue

The only critters I found were 6 nassarius snails. I think maybe there are fewer critters than we believe in there :)

Goes to show what I know, and what I do for maintenance
Guess I'm outta the norm here as I just read this;

haha, I think this is a good discussion considering it has always been a big debate about whether they should have a sand bed or not.

Greg, I do not think 6 months is long enough for a sandbed to really "fill up". This is just my oppinion but I had no issues in my sandbed (around 1.5 inchs) for a year and a half. It is only lately that I started having issues.

MJ - The dryrock I used is the same as what has been in the tank when I started. I could take a piece of rock out and some sand, put them both in RO water and test the water to test if there is any level increase. Hmm..might be worth doing =P, and perhaps everyone else who can
participate can do so too and we can pool in our results =D.

:pop2:

What issues have you had ?

Red slime :cry:

I had Cyano issues recently, but I'm currently cured ...

If your tank is doing well and you like the look of sand why change what you're doing? Unfortunately, not all tanks can handle the extra nutrients of an un-maintained sand bed.

My tanks have been bare bottom for the past 6 or 7 years. I like the look, and I don't miss dealing with sand and the crud it collects. But of course this is just my preference.

I voted no. When I had a sandbed its was pretty deep in both the tank and refugium/sump. Lots of critters so I never siphoned it. Mind you that was back when that was the big thing.

I have been running bare for years now. Was going to add some to my new tank for wrasses but the pain of looking after it was not worth it.

+1

Better yet, sell it to the guy looking for large fish to cycle his tank. Im pretty sure there is enough of a chemical cocktail in that primordial ozze to kick start any tak cycle

I don't vacuum my sand bed, I give it a little soft swirl once every few months so I don't crush all my worms and friends and the detris just goes into my sump and I vacuum it out... If I vacuums my bed I'd be replacing sand every so often since its so fine... I spend enough on my tank... I just clean my sump floor on water changes it gets gross

I find cleaning my tank spotless just gives me more problems.
But I don't keep sps

:rip:

I now vacuum my sandbed religiously. Im on my third sandbed in about 2.5 years because of the old theory "dont touch your sand bed". Both of my first 2 sandbeds had cyano and then had dinos. Twards the end of my second sandbed I started vacuuming and it started to help but I already had so much crap buildup, the dinos just kept coming back. Everytime I vacummed the water was so dirty and stunk but the water in my tank was crystal clear. Both times after removing the sandbed, it took about a month for the dinos to dissapear off the rocks but it did. I also thought my dry rock was the cause but it wasnt. Since adding my new sandbed and cleaning it often I dont get that dirty water and smell from the sandbed anymore.

On my old sandbeds I constantly had to run gfo and carbon dose to keep the nutrients down. Since vacuuming on a regular basis I dont run anything anymore. Ive never had so much growth and color like I do now.

Anyone who has seen my system knows I run a super clean system of sps and some high end finiky sps as well, so you all know what it takes to keep those alive. Its not a matter of overfeeding or anything, its just buildup over time and it eventually will give you a world of problems.

A lot of info floating around this hobby is a bunch of bogus and I learned that the hard way. Its stuff people read from somewhere from a guy who doesnt know jack about this hobby and people run with this crap. Talk to people who have had successful tanks for years and they will guide you in the right direction. Too many people with only a couple months in this hobby making up and preaching rules about stuff they have never seen or experienced.

Everyones tank is different so learn your tank not someone elses. Follow the basic reefing rules and then play from there.

Just my 2 cents on my observations.

And there's the rub. This was a poll, and it's about 50/50 on vacuuming or not. So which side of the advice do you take? There are tanks on both sides that do great. And learning your own tank generally involves expensive mistakes. By the time most people learn their tank, the tank is getting shutdown anyway.

So, for me, based on this poll, I vacuum 50% of the time. Figure I can't go wrong, because I'm doing what 100% of the people do :)

Haha good one! Nobody ever said this hobby was cheap or easy, and from my experience listenting to random joe or the lfs has made this hobby even more costly. Im also not stating sand beds are bad, ive seen beautiful tanks with undisturbed sandbeds. Im just speaking from my own personal experience.

I always listen to peoples advice because im no expert, but I dont run and completely change my tank because random joe behind a keyboard said so like I used to when I was new to this.