I love my Deltec skimmer. So much so I bought another for my next tank build:wink: Used of course:biggrin:

Anthony

:mrgreen: When is the thread for new tank build going up? :smile:

As soon as I get the last couple pieces of equipment for it (Jebao:wink:)

:lol:

It is a fact that there are some amazing tanks out there that use budget equipment. I think the bottom line is that good husbandry techniques and careful equipment selection are far more important than the amount of money you spend. In my opinion, you can get skimmers that skim equally well to a Bubble King or LED lights that provide equal light quality as a GHL Mitras, for a fraction of the price of those high end items.

At the same time, I think hobbyists that stick to budget equipment should recognize that, while it may be stupid to you to spend $200 extra to get rid of a power cord in your tank, or $500 for a dead silent skimmer, other hobbyists may think it is worth it. It is simply a difference of opinion and is definitely not worth expending energy arguing about.

A few specific comments I have regarding gear in this thread:

- Custom tanks actually aren't much more than standard tanks. It depends a lot on the "options" you select on the custom tank, but you can actually get a basic custom tank for nearly the same price as a standard tank.

- I have seen no difference in my tanks that have used IO, Reef Crystals, Kent, and Deltec salt. I currently use IO.

- I kind of found the Kessil comment odd (that they are good value). I think they are one of the most over priced lights on the market for what they do. This is coming from someone who owns one.

- Vortech's are fantastic quality compared to Hydor Koralias. If you take proper care of your Vortech, it will last for many years. Personally, I think you are lucky if you can get 2 years out of a Koralia, even with regular vinegar baths. It is also really nice to clean a Vortech you do not need to unplug it.

- I completely agree about the LEDs. Cheap LEDs can provide great quality of light, just as good as a high end LED fixture. My biggest problem with cheap LEDs is that they are just ugly. Good for those who have a close canopy, but not good looking over open top tanks.

" Although english is not my first language but I think there's a well understood difference between "disagree" and "debate" and I am capable enough to understand the difference."

I guess I am just misinterpreting your comments then.

Yep, I had a 75g starphire 3 sides, frameless with external overflow built for the same price as a standard "reef ready" 75g tank at the local stores. My dimension were a bit different though as I went with a 3' x 2' foot print instead of the standard 48" x 18". It also pays to check around as I had other quotes that were much higher.

The lines you made bold are from a completely different thread where I showed that "expensive" LEDs cost benefit is extremely low. That's a completely different thread; Bill just pointed it out since I am well known to trigger such conclusions :razz:. And its about disproving the advertisement by those companies; I also pointed out good sides of LEDs in that thread too but I wouldn't buy the main line that all those companies put forth for LED; atleast not for the next 2/3 years. Its math :)

And about the disco; its not debatable because its either there or its not there for certain fixture....you cannot say you can't have a disco affect from a razor fixture.

Sorry for misinterpreting your comment. Those two points were from a thread few months ago so I just brought it up in context. My apology :)

Well I'm also grouchy today because I spent the day in freezing cold sump pit replacing pumps and then had to come home to 1 1/2 hours of shovelling snow. Now I have to proof read another of my wife's reports for her university degree which I know absolutely nothing about the subject (or care to) but have a knack for grammar and making her wording flow better and make more sense. I can actually write better than I do on Canreef.

:lol: Best of luck reviewing the report :)

I am still at the university staring at thousands of data in excel and trying to make fancy diagrams using illustrator....its just one of those days :P

Really sorry for escalating your mood with this thread.

I said, I dont want cords in my tank..................................Not in my sump

You said that?! :neutral::surprise: Sorry Doug but that wasn't pointed at you :redface: Just an awkward coincidence :sad:

I know. Thats was suppose to be funny.

As for Tunze in comparison, I have owned more Tunze equipment than many. My 20g sps tank runs on the new Tunze 250 ReefPack.

As for pumps, I ran a pair of 6200 streams in my 225 and one in smaller tanks. They were the best pumps I owned, even the one that shorted out and sent lightning bolts from my metal halide reflector to my forehead. {many long term members will remember that story, :lol:}.

I just really like my MP 20. Ran flawless for years. Was going to buy Tunze for the new tank, but decided on adding an MP 40. And the two Im buying are used.

Did you feel like Raiden? Or Zeus? :lol:

Hmm. Have to go back and look. I dont even remember if it hurt.

I will say one thing for Tunze. Best service and warranty service I have had on any piece of equipment.

This is an exclusive hobby, like having to own an F40 and an F50 before buying an Enzo, you can have a $h!tload of cash, but if you don't have the creds, money is only going to get you so far.

That being said, I think it tends to be a little too exclusive sometimes. There is this inordinate amount of pressure to upgrade when you have the ability. Raied, I remember the pressure on you to install a sump even though you didn't have the real estate.

I've been frowned upon for trying to ship livestock in many differing ways North, only to have more DOAs than successes. "Then maybe you shouldn't have anything but the hardiest of corals" its been said. Really?!?

Mental health is crucial and making a hobby inaccessible due to x,y and z is a form of exclusivity and I think we should try to be a little more accomodating/understanding to those in the hobby who face challenges. My $0.02.

MRHasan: I'm not really sure what you're looking to achieve with this thread? Vindication that you can get by with budget equipment? A resounding chorus from budget reefers saying "Those who pay premium are idiots"?

There's nothing at all saying a cheap maxijet or some Chinese knockoff can't provide good flow. The difference, for me at least, is that when I buy Tunze equipment I'm buying a history of rock solid performance. I won't be worried that my pump will fail at 2am on a Saturday of a long weekend leaving me scrambling and in a panic. It's not the performance when it works that's the deciding factor for me, it's the peace of mind knowing that I bought a quality product that is statistically less likely to cause a catastrophic failure in my tank. Furthermore, if something does occur I've bought a product with warranty service that is second to none. Some people see more value in buying two cheap pumps in case one fails. Both are valid viewpoints and it comes down to where an individual sees the value.

Same with LED's. My AI SOL's work fine for me for now. They grow coral, they have a measure of controllability. That doesn't mean that there is ZERO value in the extra features of higher end fixtures such as better controllability, less disco effect, a better more metal halide-like shimmer, etc.

We get it, you don't have money because you're a student. Honestly, most of us have been there before and can sympathise. Just because some of us see the value in higher end gear doesn't make us idiots for spending more, and to be honest I'm sure most of us don't care if you want to spend less. To each his/her own.

Nop my point was not that but my point was its kind of silly to push people to buy expensive stuffs. Its definitely fun to buy fancy stuffs (I bought myself an ATI dimmable fixture :D) but there are times where one ask "is bubble magus good" and there will be posts like "piece of crap (cause they are cheap) and you should get bubble king cause you get what you pay for"..... there's very few threads asking "what's your budget...hmm...that's the best you can get within that amount of money but here's some other options in case you were not sure" but rather "hey hey hold of to that, you dont wanna buy that cause its cheap, made in china...go for the more expensive one". That's all I am saying :smile:

:twised::twised::twised::twised:


http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1cf77855.jpg



:twised::twised::twised::twised:

I think I'll read this thread after a few drinks tonight as it may make more sense to me then... :drinking:

:lol:

got a quote or link....may help your case no??

I don't wanna put any links over here cause that might relate to personal attack which I definitely don't want to. What I wanted was to get make a point that to have a successful reef, you don't necessarily have to have the high end equipment out there. That is something that many new reefers get afraid of: cost of high end equipment. In this hobby, its all about getting a nice reef tank to get going and hence "do you really get what you pay for?" in context of having a reef tank.

spose lol

You paid for radion pros...did you "get" what you paid for? In this hobby, we spend money for nicer tank, did you get that from those? ;)

I think that's the point though,

Radio Pro's may or may not give you a "nicer" tank than AI SOl's, but there are other reasons to buy things such as reliability, customisability, etc. that make it money well spent to some people. As such, it's in the eye of the beholder (spender). If you spend money upgrading from say a SOL to a Hydra just to have a "nicer" reef you may not get your moneys worth. If however, your goal is a broader light spectrum and more convenient programabillity than you'd probably feel your money was well spent.

I'm not terribly active on here anymore, but it seems to me that in most "help me buy equipment" type threads I've seen the OP either states their budget outright and people try to suggest things within that budget, or people try to suggest things within the whole spectrum. Those have certainly been my experience when I've wanted advice on a purchase. Have you considered that the "You get what you pay for" comments are from people who have tried cheaper stuff and had it fail at a really inopportune time, rather than people who are too heavily invested in their particular favourite brand?

Exactly that's what my point is. Different people will definitely have different opinion on whats "expensive". To me, a $20 lunch would be expensive (cause I can cook so much with that amount) but replacing 6x$22 T5s every year is not. Highly variable thing. But I go around forums (I have the habit of googling for everything I buy and go around other forums since canreef is actually very mild with nice reviews; hence I dont post in other forums), I find all sorts of "rants" making it look like less expensive things in the hobby are curses. I don't know about others but I feel terrible looking at those.

You don't see much in this forum regarding such rant since canreefers are nice. Although I have been in debate with some of the posters in this thread but they have been extremely nice to be in many cases; its just part of healthy debate I would say :) It got a bit tricky/mess/whichever word you use but...oh well...I know nothing is going to change between them and myself :)

And about the last bold line, I think its more from people who loves specific brands than those who have experimented. Because people who did cover the full spectrum from low end to high end (I myself did in some aspects) tends to have more practical opinion than just "buy the most expensive stuffs!".

not sure why you would think i didnt as i think i did , got a price on them , paid it and the light worked just fine , in fact sold it as brand new and got some good moey back for it;PP

the sun works too ....

just for me this was a better choice for my tank at the time.

whats your argument exactly? that highend lights dont do as good a job as low end or that low end dont do a good as a job as highend?

still dont see anything in this thread but complaining about highend stuff lol

So, it was a better choice for you at that time but not now. Hence it might not be a better choice for someone else for now a.k.a paying for high end fixture doesn't necessarily mean its bound to work for you. In context to your comment, here's my point:

"highend stuffs may do a good job and cheap stuffs may also do a good job; paying for higher priced equipment is no shortcut to a successful reef and doesn't necessarily mean you are paying for the best choice and successful reef is possible with low end fixtures".

my friend , i think you should read a little and maybe think about it before posting and heres why.....

you dont understand what im saying and prob what most others are saying, all you hear is " you paid how much". while i could have kept my radion pros im not sure how 2 radons can light up 11ft of tank?? ( 2 x 5 1/2 ft systems) and i dont think they are a good fit both in regards to sps colors im trying to aquire and to photography, can i ask what did you find with your led light in regards to both? maybe im missing something lol

my reason for leaving leds has nothing to do with " x " amount of dollars vs " xxx " amount of dollars or i wouldnt of bought the pros lol being high end or low end had nothing to do with it i think you got your facts completely mixed up and backwards.

again all i see is a " i hate high end stuffs " thread that has no direction at all lol



care to explain?

now your learning lol

LOL :mrgreen:

That's what the problem is here. More reading than experience mixed with back peddling. Unsubscribed

Ok so basically this is how the thread went:

Step 1: I opened up a thread saying which stuffs I prefer to spend my money and which I don't and I believe you dont always get what you pay for.

Step 2: I keep on saying that there are people who strongly believe that you pay what you get for and they insist that nothing is achievable by low-end fixture

Step 3: Apparently, everything gets concluded as "rant for high end stuffs" :razz:

Denny, my point has been from the very beginning of the thread (with some diversion) is that "you don't always get what you pay for". I don't know where it is so hard to understand. It is not always about the money but about what you are going to be successful with. Since we are on LEDs, let me bring on example up. Many people have success with AI and many have success with radions. There you go: the complete spectrum! And few weeks ago regarding an LED, someone keeps on pointing out that you should go for "HIGH END FIXTURE" to have success. That's my rant. Disprove me if you may! Success can be achieved by all means and cannot be judged by how many high end stuffs you have. As simple as that: that's my whole point. You are the kind of guy who gives all sort of option irrespective of price. I still remember you saying "odyssea should be fine on your tank" instead of saying "thats complete crap; change it asap or you won't be able to grow anything". I have dealt with you too many times than anyone here and you have never judged (atleast not for my purchases) on the money but rather than the actual quality.

And funny how the so called "experience" play around the game. When a guy who talks about how high end stuffs may not always work for you, thats total crap, must have experience before talking and "back peddling" but when a guy comes forth saying "hey don't buy that, I "heard" they can burn down your house", experience doesn't matter and that's rock solid advice right there. What can I say :)

My direct experience with BM was after about 8 months the pump would get really hot and shut down, then it would and repeat the procedure. BM did send me a new pump and I used it for a week or so then I sold it. About a month later I got an email from the guy who bought it and he said that the new pump actually blew up and took his sump out with it. He wasn't accusing me of anything just had some questions about what to do as the skimmer wasn't a year old yet. I had him contact Michael and as far as I know Aqua-Digital took care of him on this. So I would be hesitant to recommend any BM product not because they are cheap but because of my experience with the product. Point is not everyone is telling people not to buy cheap stuff just because of the price point. Some of the bad stories you hear are actually true.

:deadhorse:

True that :) Atleast you didn't make me feel like I am "lying" because I don't have the experience, thanks :) Some people are good in doing that ;) I had a vertex in-80/100 pump burn on me :razz:

I knew you would return :mrgreen:

But you assume that success is the only motivation in selection of item. It isn't. I choose my controller for ease of tank management. I choose it for it's form factor and interface. I choose it for it's programming model.
My LEDs were selected for how they would look as an overall part of the tank design in the main room of my house. AI Sols have a very nice design and fit well with the theme of my tank.
I choose pumps for how quiet they are, how easy they are to clean and how convenient spare parts are to acquire.
Each piece of equipment has far many more criteria for selection than "will I be successful".
And with these considerations, I find, that in most situations pertaining to my tank and my wallet, I got exactly what I paid for. And none of it has anything to do with how successful it will make me in reef keeping. I have a knack for growing SPS and could probably be successful with a proverbial stick and a blanket. The value of my purchases goes far beyond that.

I too wonder what the hell you're going on about. I think your line of reasoning is very narrow minded and you're arguing in a circle. The best success in reef keeping is being happy with how you've proceeded in the journey. Enjoy your tank, or don't. Stop arguing over something that doesn't have a winning side.

This will not be a winning side. And I am going in circle because I just have one point to prove over here and nothing else :) It just ****es me off when I ask for an advice on an equipment and someone comes forth and say "don't buy that, because you get what you pay for". Well if it suits me, I buy it, I don't like things being judged by money: because that's sets by some companies out there on their own analysis.

In the end, all it matters is what you wrote (pointed in bold). If you can afford expensive stuffs, do it. If someone can't, don't push it on him/her. I couldn't afford an expensive fixture earlier but now I can; I know how it feels when someone judge you on that. A person who started with all the good stuffs won't understand; I should have known that :)

I will stop now....have had enough fun. Cheers! :smile: