Ha, even these big guns would drool at the deductions Agri-business of all sizes gets. I'd be really interested to see some of the financial statements and tax returns of the really big farming corporations.

As far as the knowledge the big guys have goes, it's all there for everybody and it's all scalable. The same principals and breaks that work for the big guys mostly work for the small guys. Their size doesn't get them any special perks, just the opposite actually, however a lot of these structures and mechanisms simply aren't cost effective for small businesses and individuals. It might be cost effective for GE to spend $150,000 to have a team of accountants spend 3 months on optimising corporate share structure, but it just wouldn't be worth it for the little guys. We could do it, but the tax advantage would be so small there would be no benefit. Not because the rules favour the big guy necessarily, simply because that's the economy of scale.

Just read the forbes article and yeah, some of it is due to their nature as it involves intellectual property and licencing. Stuff that wouldn't be available to the corporate structure we setup for say an energy company.

Large corps though are taxed at a high(er) interest rate, federally it's at 38% Small business benefit from a number of rate reductions they get:
38% - Basic federal corporate tax rate
-17% - Small business deduction for firms with revenues under 500K
-10% - General rate reduction
-----
11% effective federal tax rate for small business - less than the 12.5% achieved with the double Irish method discussed in the article

I can do that for a little guy for much less than big corporations spend on their corporate accounting departments :)

The US has screwed themselves over with their tax laws. That is exactly what is killing them and that is why there is such a drastic spread between rich and poor in the US. The taxes that large US companies pay is peanuts compared to what it used to be. But, if you make them pay more, they will just close the doors and move to a different country. Bless your heart Global economics. :wink:

Also, the morons have mortgages as tax right offs.... I mean how stupid can you be. So every gets as big of a mortgage as possible and nobody wants to pay them off because it is a write off every year. The housing industry in the U.S is in complete shambles. A much deeper recession looms in the US soon. They just can't stop printing money and soon it will be good for nothing but toilet paper if they keep it up.

Geez, I could say a lot more on this topic,... but I think I will keep my mouth shut... It does surprise me, though, how little the general public seems to understand how corporations work, or even basic economics. No wonder we have such a big debt problem, both with governments and individuals...

Here is what Mr Corporate Gamble thinks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s

Good to see that this thread has actually staid civilized (mostly)

I love you all people.

As much as I love following your thinking processes.

Few things i hate are:
- Money (Makes us slaves imo)
- War: makes us suffer, and makes corporations super rich. USA is always in war (peace keeping lol), think why?

- Banksters: Makes us poor, making money out of thin air, landing money that they dont own/have, Landing 100 times more than they print and collect interest 100 times on every dollar, keep us in slavery. 'Leverage' is when say you deposit $1000 in your account and bank say that they have 100.000.00 Land it to a 100 people and collect interest 100 times over on the money they never had.

-TV and all corporate "media" brainwashing machine.


English is not my first language so please let me apologise for not expressing my points of view clearly.

Money is a way that allows us to exchange for goods and services and it replaced the bartering system. Without money, it would be very difficult to get anything including essentials.

Banks and other financial intermediaries allow people with surplus and deficits to connect. Without having any financial systems many of is would not have been able to purchase a home or home etc... It is also a place to store your financial holdings rather than hiding it in your mattress etc...

I'm not certain where you are going with this and I do not understand your political beliefs at this time but without money and financial intermediaries how will the world operate? Perhaps you. An enlighten us with your thoughts and ideas of how societies would operate in your "perfect world"? From this we may then understand you better.

At least we agree to hate war...

Yup, and "disagree" (wont say "hate" because Mods will sink their teeth in my back and draw blood again :lol:,) with anyone who is in the war, or making money on it, or stupid and brainwashed enough to sign up for it and get paid for being in war...

As far as enlightening goes, i would rather prefer to plant a seed in peoples mind that perhaps will generate a thought. The reason is that it is impossible to change anyone's mind by arguing.

are you married? serious question...

Here is a seed that should be planted in every junior high school student.
This should be required viewing.

It is an excellent animated 3 part documentary of how vital debt is to our economy.
The first 2 parts are available on Youtube no charge, the third part you need to order and it discusses an alternative "money supply."

I highly recommend everyone to watch at least the first 2 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

I declare shenanigans.

yup. I just did that.

No surprise that this was based on Bank of England's "brief history of banknotes"... get in to more debt, be more enslaved, feed the banksters.

I'd rather have my kid watch ZEITGEIST in school as a required viewing ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

Conspiracy movies like Zeitgeist should not be shown to kids.
I tried to watch it a few years ago and turned it off because of it's nonsense.

Kids need to learn how our actual economy works and make decisions that will help them make productive choices, not fringe films that are meant to confuse them.

I'm not sure the point of this thread, but corporations are a pretty simple concept, a legal entity that allow business people to safely conduct business without putting their personal property at risk.

Yes because our economies and monetary system is perfect and infallible. They definitely should never be scrutinized. The shenanigans (yes I said it) of Wallstreet is just part of the perfection.

If kids/students can't listen to different ideas and arguments and look on them objectively, we'll that is a shame. Also if we can't think and work on improvements to systems (monetary system being one), that is so closed minded and also sad.

Personally I really like the Zeitgeist films (there are 3). I don't agree with everything in them but they are eye openers for sure. They cover a lot of topics, like mental health, religion, war and are probably only 25% about the monetary system.

A good documentary to watch about the crash of 2008 and subsequent recession is inside job. It does a good job of laying out the sicking financial moves that lead to one of worst market declines in history. In October '08 the head of the International Monetary Fund/IMF warned that the world financial system was teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown.

I'm not personally against any of this stuff but even if you think something is great you can still try to objectively look at the flaws and think of improvements. I love myself but sometimes I think about how I can be a better person. Then I grab a beer :)

Zeitgeist reminds me of the hippie movement back in the late 60's and the communes. Then in later life many of them ended up on Wall Street, and in corporations.

As was said, corporations are very simple. People pooling their resources and different skills to create more assets for everyone to share. Some are profitable, some are not. Definitely more efficient and productive than individuals or communes.

But we will always have protests and alternative lifestyle movements, as envy and jealously just seems to be part of the human make-up. And it seems our species are not the only ones, as per another thread I posted recently.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...d.php?t=101358

Aint no hippie mo fo here, but I do like the films. Honestly, have you even watched one start to finish?
Everything is simple if you choose not to look at the details. C'mon I can give you the definition of a nuclear reaction but does that tell you everything you need to know about a nuclear reaction?

nuclear reaction

— n
a process in which the structure and energy content of an atomic nucleus are changed by interaction with another nucleus or particle

And when people protest anything that is unjust or unfair that makes them jealous in your mind?

Let me just say that life is never fair, and I am not going to waste my energy fretting about it. Life is too short to be unhappy. What is more important is to make the most of what we have and the opportunities that come our way. That includes making good choices and helping our kids, as well as those less fortunate than ourselves.

And be thankful for what we have. Hmmm, isn't that what this past weekend was supposed to be about?....

So you are saying women should stop worrying about equal pay for equal work. Minorities should stop fretting about discrimination. African Americans should have been happy enough as slaves. People with out food and water should be thankful they have air. People who lost there life retirement savings or could not retire when they planned to because of the wallstreet crash should just be quite. Students with thousands of dollars in debt should be happy cause although they can't find a decent job in their field they do have a job (although its at walmart).

You start out by saying life is never fair and you shouldnt worry about it, than you go on and say we should make good choices and help our kids and those less fortunate. Which one is it??

Well, if I was going to fret about every bit of unfairness (in my opinion) I see in life, I would be a very unhappy person. Instead I choose to change things for the better and help people, with whatever choices and resources I can muster.

You probably won't agree with this either, but here is what Bill Gates said to some school kids some time ago (although the source may be in dispute):

----------Whether you like Bill Gates or not...this is pretty
cool. Here's some advice Bill Gates recently dished out
at a high school speech about 11 things they did not
learn in school. He talks about how feel-good,
politically correct teaching has created a full
generation of kids with no concept of reality and how
this concept sets them up for failure in the real
world.

RULE 1
Life is not fair - get used to it.

RULE 2
The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world
will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel
good about yourself.

RULE 3
You will NOT make 40 thousand dollars a year right out
of high school. You won't be a vice president with
car phone, until you earn both.

RULE 4
If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a
boss. He doesn't have tenure.

RULE 5
Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your
grandparents had a different word for burger flipping
they
called it Opportunity.

RULE 6
If you mess up,it's not your parents' fault, so don't
whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

RULE 7
Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as
they are now. They got that way from paying your bills,
cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about
how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest
from the parasites of your parent's generation, try
delousing the closet in your own room.


RULE 8
Your school may have done away with winners and losers,
but life has not. In some schools they have abolished
failing grades and they'll give you as many times as
you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the
slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

RULE 9
Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get
summers off and very few employers are interested in
helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

RULE 10
Television is NOT real life. In real life people
actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

RULE 11
Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for
one.

I didn't say the system was perfect, of course is is not. That's why we need more education about the systems that are currently in place.

I am also neither closed minded or sad, quite the opposite.

In order to view or discuss conspiracy stories, one should have a good understanding of the subject beforehand and a sophistication that allows for an objective understanding of who the presenter is. The "artist" or "activist" does have an agenda. I would prefer to see a respected investigative journalist first dig up some actual facts. Otherwise it's basically just campfire talking points.

Also, you can be sure that the presenter has a few corporations of their own, in order to maximize profits from the product that they're selling.

I'm also not naive.:smile:

Again this is very confusing. If you are not concerned about anything why are you trying to change anything. Someone who is not concerned does nothing.

I'm no huge activist, far from it but at least I can look at this world and be concerned. I don't let it affect my daily life but I acknowledge the messed up stuff I witness/read and engage in a conversation about it sure. Maybe that will increase awareness. Like when I mentioned 18,000 children die of hungry related causes a day. I bet that blew the minds of a lot of people reading it. I know when I first read that statistic I was shocked.

....the source is in dispute (Bill Gates did not say or write these words) by pretty much everyone.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar...tes_speech.htm
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...m#.UmAJLVP-tWo
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/schoolrules.asp

Sorry I'm not saying your are sad or close minded in general but to not even allow yourself to consider the possibility of truth or partial truth in at least some of his arguments is. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and Im sure some of his arguments are made out of thin air but some hold truth as well, its just to get you thinking. Waiting for main stream media to shed light on some of these issues is not a good idea either, IMO the state of media today is pretty bad. Do you really think what the "trusted media" feeds us today is fool proof and 100% true?

I also never said you were naive. :)

In my opinion, the media are just as guilty as politicians.
The media will scare people to sell their stories and politicians will scare people to get votes.
The best way to combat that fear is education and to call them on things that are just not true.
That is all.:smile:

Well, fretting is not the same as being concerned. Of course, I am concerned. But my actions may be different than some others. Just talking about the problems won't solve them. We need to take actions and make decisions to make things better. And that includes utilizing the different knowledge/resources that we have as individuals in whatever field/career we may have chosen. We don't all have the same capabilities to help.

I believe in creating more wealth/assets for everyone to share. That helps the poor and improves everyone's quality of life, including around the world. Of course, there are wars and non democratic dictators/thugs out there that will thwart that.

That is in direct contrast to some who focus more on dividing up assets and redistributing wealth. Another way to look at it, is instead of just slicing up the pie, is create a bigger pie. If we don't grow our wealth and assets, we have less to give to the poor, and even support our own social services like health and education.

I guess that brings us back to corporations. I believe they are the most efficient and effective means to create more wealth and assets for everyone to share. Again, corporations are just a collection of people (or may be individuals) pooling their skills and resources. And competition is what makes corporations most productive. The bad ones just don't survive, unless they get some kind of protection or help from govts.

And just to be clear, I don't believe that everyone should be working for a corporation (whether large or as an individual). I do believe we also need govt services, including some research and development. And civil service is indeed an admirable career choice and profession. But there needs to be an affordable balance, that in the end supports overall growth and improved quality of life for everyone. That's what I am trying to say.

I agree with may of the points being made, and disagree with many. Some things that I find to be constantly obstructing a more productive and more sustainable humanity seem to be unmentioned.
I don't think anyone mentioned the super rich using tax havens, which exist just as much in the USA and in Canada. This is an effective strategy for dodging taxes that is not an option to anyone making anything under several million per year.
For example if you use an iphone: http://www.forbes.com/sites/leeshepp...e-avoid-taxes/

I totally have to agree with any negative sentiment around corporate money in politics. Political donations made by corporations are almost never, if ever, neutral and once again take away from the idea of politics creating what is best for the people of the country and reinforces the idea of doing what is best for their corporate sponsor so they can make lots of money and donate again next election cycle.

One idea I had to try and rectify this system is to peg all MP's , MLA's, senators, the PM, and other non essential representatives of the people of Canada to the average Canadians wage and give them a pension that also is equal to the average private market compensation. Its really not that hard for me to imagine an almost overnight 360 in Canadian politics after something like that was implemented. Obviously this is not a prefect solution but it just might be better then what we do now putting out elected officials into the top 20% of income earners in Canada and wondering why 80% of us end up slowly loosing what made Canada and America so great in the first place.

One point that was made I don't think I could ever agree with is money being evil. Money might be able to be used for evil, but I think it comes back to the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument in a heck of a hurry. The best definition for money I have ever heard, and I cannot logically disprove this in my mind, is a unit to represent and facilitate the transfer of energy. I think anyone on this message board would be able to agree from their own hobby experience that the transfer of energy in biological systems is a basic fundamental for any type of biological system to work. Human society being a heavily biologically rooted system also requires energy transfers to be made at an incredible pace, especially in the fast world of the internet.The transfer of energy itself is neutral, however I will agree that energy itself can be used for a multitude of negative effects on society. This positive or negative effect is almost totally depended on the circumstances and mind frame of the people or person conducting where and how energy flows and not in the conducting system its self.
In my mind if the logical continuation of the all money is bad because you can do bad things with it argument is: Now all stores are bad because some of them sell bullets sometimes and sometimes bullets kill people.
So just remeber money as we know it is a relatively new system to humanity and our ancestors, and like any type of evolution just because it starts out ridiculous and inefficient, that does not mean in any way it is a bad idea.
Dry and boring to most I really enjoyed listening to Friedrich A. Hayek discuss his ideas about economics.
The Life & Thought of Friedrich Hayek

Economics a very long and confusing subject and to steal a line from Jon Stewart if you read a few things about economics and make blankets statements like "money is bad" that says much more about the kind of person you are then ever will about the point you are really trying to get across.

I really enjoyed Bill Gates rules. Thank you for sharing.

One point that I either missed or was simply missing is the strange graduated income tax that exists now. I knew about this subject before but the one thing that really cemented this idea in my head was Rich dad poor dad's Robert T. Kiyosaki talking about the income tax structure in our country. I think Jon Stewart also sums it up best when he asks is investment and corporate income worth more to our countries prosperity then normal manual labor? If so lower the corporate tax rate and keep capitol gains taxes low, but it comes at a very heavy cost of investment that could have otherwise come from the pockets of normal every day schmoes like me.

Now to something completely off topic and positive:
This is a amazing desertification reversal projects
Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change

http://www.savoryinstitute.com/

And I thought I would add in this weird debate. When i read the title the first time I just said WTF?!?!? and afterwards was very surprised by the content:
How Much Government Is Necessary?" Debate - Part 1

More thinking positive:
http://www.corbettreport.com/episode...ng-anastrophe/

Very good thread!! It's nice to know there are others out there with open minds and the ability to scrutinize things that are unclear or unfair. This is the only way to make forward movement as humans IMO. Otherwise we are simply brain dead zombies.....for some, the zombie apocalypse is already here and has been for sometime ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

Couldn't have said better my self !
We all think that we have open mind, but only like-minded people will agree LOL.

You think what You know is true, I think what I know is true....
But what is the REAL truth? We will never know with today's system.
JMTCW
I guess my main goal was achieved in planting a good conversation seed...
This is good.

As in trolling... You still didn't say what you do for a living. That could definitely explain a few things...

Had to look up trolling... I feel the same way when people on here trying to make me and others upset by their remarks.

Response to any idea is always voluntarily, don't have to if you don't like it.
Just because someone has different view does not mean she or he deserves an attack from others.
Attacking free will, open mind and free thinking is easy to do, but what is the point? I don't mean you personally, just in general point of view.
If this thread is not interesting then why participate?

I respect opinions of others, but would also like to be respected.

Honestly i don't like personal questions that is why i did not answer it, sorry.
But if you insist i probably make more than you would guess.
Don't know what you wanted explained though? why i am so strange?

This "do for a living" goes back to my point that humans have to pay for living. All other creatures are free in that regard because; Fish, Lion, Bird or a Gazelle even though they have to adapt and survive they don't have to make money for being on this planet, don't have to go to work. Don't have to pay for a meal. They are truly free to do what they want. You can kill them, or train to do tricks, but you can not make them be slaves willingly.
And well, if you have read that far thank you for that.
cheers.

money enables society

love it or hate it, it is a thing that is inert. It is neither good nor bad. It enables civilizations to advance in complexity for better or worse.

Here's a prize winning book about it, if you seek truth.

Ascent of Money. Ferguson, Niall.

http://www.niallferguson.com/publica...scent-of-money

Sorry, I don't mean to offend. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. And I don't care how much you make.

I have met all kinds of people with my work and personal life. And their opinions and views seem to very much be a consequence of their environment and life experiences. We are all different (thank goodness for that), but we do tend to form beliefs and opinions that shape our careers and lives.

Your point of being a slave to money just doesn't make sense to me, though. Money is a currency, which actually gives me more freedom of choice to improve my life, and even partake in discretionary activities like reefing.

Here is a simple example of the freedom and choice that money provides. If I need to dig a ditch in my yard for some reason, I could get out my shovel and go to work at it, or I could hire someone with an excavator and pay him. I can then use the time I saved doing something that I am good at, and use the the money I make from that to pay the guy, and still have money left over for other things.

Open minds are great, and our curious and persistent thirst for new knowledge is what has brought us to this point in our civilization (hopefully it won't destroy us too). We are also very social beings, and have learned that by working together and pooling our resources (as with corporations), we have managed to create a better and safer life for ourselves and fellow human beings. Of course there are still many parts of the world that are still catching up. And we're not done with wars and human slavery.

But with open minds, we also can't ignore reality. Yeah, many do try, with drugs, alcohol, and even video games. Living in a fantasy dreamland, or wishing for some utopia can be a great escape..., for a while. However, the laws of survival (of the fittest) do generally prevail.

I have a strange combo of undergrad degree in a life science, and masters in finance & marketing. (it's a long story)

Animals and people are the same in that it is the survival of the fittest, in differing environments with differing 'selection pressure'

It comes down to resources. Animals that are fittest have better resources for their given environment. Resources can be in the form of territory, access to food, access to mates (harems), and also its compliment of genes. Stronger, fitter individuals have better genes, better resistance to disease, better appearance to attract mates (sexually dimorphism).

People that are fittest in our environment are more capable to amass wealth, have better health to attract mates and resist disease, have social intelligence to navigate society.

What is fittest in a given environment is not fittest in a different environment. Example, take a wall street banker and put him in war torn Somalia...

It is still a free competition, and all about resources. It's neither good nor bad, it is just the way the ecosystem (or society) has changed, and what has prevailed (be it the system or its most prevalent characters in its individuals), they exist simply because that is what has worked out best.

it is really a long way of saying, don't hate the player, hate the game.

I watched the first part and I have to say it was really good. I like the idea of getting rid of the fractional reserve and central banking systems.

words of wisdom.

While "printing money" to provide liquidity is necessary at times, we are now in uncharted territory with what the US fed is doing with their endless QE. It was originally intended to stimulate the economy (using the theory that a rising tide will float all boats). But now the current US govt is totally dependent on it to finance their over spending. And any hint to slow down QE (as with the recent taper talks), causes fears of another economic slowdown. So now they are living on monetary heroin, and can't get off it.

Not sure where it will end either. They seem to be unable to cut back spending, but at some point the debt will overrun their ability to pay their obligations, ie default. And when China realizes that, they will stop buying US treasury bonds.

Then interest rates will spike, along with inflation, and the economy will really plummet (and not just a short term cold turkey withdrawal).

That is a possible scenario. We are definitely in uncharted territory now, with US govt spending/debt, and QE. And corporations who created the real money for the govts to spend in the past, aren't growing fast enough (top lines, which create the jobs) anymore to keep up. And eventually their bottom lines will suffer, too.

So, you zombie apocalypse guys might be right after all... I'm just glad that I live in Canada,... but we are not immune either.

the US debt is definitely scary. Increasing the debt ceiling is just deferring the problem to the next generation.

It seems that hyperinflation was a popular topic for a while, leading to that last commodity bubble with resource-based investments being over valued. And as soon as the public forgot about it, got some hints that the economy was coming out of the trough, people threw their money into equities again (I did too, lots of under-valued stuff... it was like money was on sale at the bank). But the enormous US debt never went away...

I really don't know how this is going to play out... but there's quite a few potential game changers that can be optimistic.

With Bakken oil and more effective hydraulic fracturing techniques, the US now has a new-found resource that is suggested to make them self sufficient on oil in a few decades. So barring any more spending on new wars and curbing its own spending, there's a chance of managing that debt. If the US reach a point where oil exports exceed imports, that will change the outlook.

With taxes. I've worked in the US and in Canada. Working in the US was great... very little income tax compared to Canada. So, government & money is just like a person with money. If you want less debt, make more money and spend less. If the government want less debt, make more money (increase taxes), and spend less. Yes, increasing taxes is political suicide, but it is still an option (and a necessary one at that). Printing more money just causes inflation and defers the problem... all economists know that and so do the guys in charge. They are just choosing the popular route versus the necessary painful route.

If the US goes into hyperinflation, Canada is equally screwed. Our number one trading partner will then not be able to afford our exports with devaluation of the USD against CAD. Something that cost a US business 1 USD to buy (where CAD is at par) may double or triple with a USD devaluation. Canadian economy will hurt, we're an export & resource-based country.

Agree... The US does have some room to increase taxes. But it is all about timing and doing it now may not help things, and just prolong the agony. Cutting spending on the other hand will hurt short term, but it could lead to substantial future growth which then could help pay for some of those future debt obligations and entitlements (and they have just added a 3rd one) spending.

And yes, Canada needs to continue to increase their trade away from the US, especially with Asia. That's where the future seems to be.

so I think that we can segue back to the origin idea of this thread... which I think was... an objection to being a slave to a corporation...

A corporation is a subset system within the overall system (our economy, our society). We can be part of it actively (daily rat race), passively (not give it much thought), or reject it (go live in the mountains and prep for apocalypse). In parts of the world where there's higher standards of living, better quality of life, longer life expectancy... first world nations have our type of 'system' of society. These similar systems exist in different first world nations, not due to coincidence, not due to some artificial cause, not by accident... these systems continue successfully because they naturally worked out to prevail.


If I am lucky enough to live in such a system, I can choose to learn it, to understand it, and make the most of it for myself as best that I can, or I can choose to not understand it, get frustrated by it, object to it, and not have as good of a time... for the short time that I am alive in this world

Love it or hate it, money doesn't care, and money doesn't care that you don't understand how it works. So if I want the best quality of life that I can possibly have, it would make the most sense for me to understand how money works, and learn what are the forces that shape my best bet on my resources/wealth.

So I'm not working my butt off for the corporation for no reason. I am a shareholder as an employee too, thus, the corporation also works for me, the board of directors work for me.

Yup, sounds like your head is screwed on solid.... Probably don't have to tell you this, but when it comes to personal finance, debt is the enemy. I was never so happy (well, almost) as the day I paid off my last mortgage.

While I never deprived myself or my family, I was always frugal (and still am), and it has paid off for me. I was able to retire early, and am thoroughly enjoying life. And I have no problem keeping busy (reefing ensures that), as my friends are always asking me what I do with my time.

Thanks.

I think it's about using leverage (debt) with good business sense. Leverage is a very powerful tool. There's bad debt and good debt.

For example, I can't afford to buy my home out right, so I have a mortgage. I buy a property valued appropriately and at the right time/price. I'm not stretching to buy more than what I need, so my mortgage is affordable, and I have enough savings/investments that can handle a rate hike at refinancing. It is forced savings compared to rent.

Another example, I need a car, I could buy it out right... or, I could take advantage of low interest rates. At 2.5% APR... (sometimes zero for other brands), well, I could make more return on investment than 2.5% by keeping my investments rather than cashing them out to pay off the car.

Taking out a line of credit against a property's equity to wisely re-invest... for example to add a bathroom or finish a basement... not to build a pool or buy a Jacuzzi... so long as it can be justified in increase in property value, or additional loan payments and interest is recoverable proportionately (cap rate) in rental income. (and no, in wall aquariums do not increase property value)

Of course, I stay away from bad debt... carrying a credit card balance is a horrendous waste of money. I don't think there's value in leasing vehicles unless it can be a tax write off item for a business... etc.

But yes, I am looking forward to a day long into the future when 40% of my monthly cash flow doesn't get sucked into mortgage payments! It's far far away, but it's a heaven I've heard of!