Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board - Edmonton Freshie walking the plank, Any advice to ease the wallet/headaches :)

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- - Edmonton Freshie walking the plank, Any advice to ease the wallet/headaches :) (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=78491)

Ha, with a 300 gal to start with, the world is your oyster, pun intended. I went straight into a marine set up, no fresh water experience, but a few friends/relatives have FW tanks so I know a little about that scenario. IMO the things that are quite a bit different between FW & SW are lighting, flow & water quality in no particular order.

Probably the first thing on the agenda would be water quality, best to get a RODI system & use pure water to mix up your soup with from the outset. No unkowns getting into your system that way.

Next, I'd say flow. Even during the cycle you'll want good water movement, so look into getting some propeller pumps since they are better at moving water in all the nooks & crannies than the laminar flow from conventional powerheads or pumps.

Lighting.... at the start you won't need to worry too much about it. It's going to take some time to cycle that bad boy, so whatever you have now for FW will probably be ok. Then, once you start adding livestock, you can put together a lighting plan. Chances are you're going to add a fish or two first, so again, lighting does not need to be ultra bright for them. As far as coral, good idea to start with some easier softies & LPS, so now you can look at bumping up the light intensity a little. It will probably be a few months before you're to that point, so you'll have plenty of time for additional research. This will be one of the larger expenses for a tank your size, so choose well depending on what your ultimate goal is. LED is definitely poised to edge out the current MH/T5HO technology, but still quite costly. Either way, lights are going to be $$$$$ if you're thinking full reef with an abundance of SPS coral. With 300 gals you can cram a few critters in there. Best of luck.

Here is a shot of my sump and tank, Its going to be a bit tricky getting a skimmer inside it and bigger chunks of live rock but there is plenty of room. I also have a secondary pipe right from the pump going back into the sump i may be able to tap into to run something like a uv or skimmer??? Also i guess all the bio balls and my pails and pails of ceramic rings will have to come out...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/005-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/014-1.jpg
Its got 2 2" inch downpipes on each side in the overflows and 2 1 1/2" return pipes on each side that i will probably have to figure how to put loc lines onto with a manifold of some kind???, The pump is really large so it blows like crazy thus the dump pipe back into the sump or the fish looked like they were being flushed LOL
It was set up with tons of overkill as i used to keep asian arowanas so im hopeing i wont need much more current or pumps just better direction but we will see.

Nice Aros!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustler (Post 636912)

Here is a shot of my sump and tank, Its going to be a bit tricky getting a skimmer inside it Yikes! How much clearance do you have under the tank? Only looks like 20"?

and bigger chunks of live rock but there is plenty of room. I don't like live rock in the sump...it just collects detritus down there and I think the added filtration is limited. I siphon butt loads of detritus out of my sump and overflow and there is no rock in there.

I also have a secondary pipe right from the pump going back into the sump i may be able to tap into to run something like a uv or skimmer??? Also i guess all the bio balls and my pails and pails of ceramic rings will have to come out... the skimmer doesn't get tapped in. It sits there and is independent and does it's own thing. A UV needs to be plumbed into ALL return water to be 100% effective. That means if you have a Y in the return line you need to put the UV before the Y. If you have two return pumps you need to put one UV on each return line. Ya, take out all that biomedia stuff.

Its got 2 2" inch downpipes on each side in the overflows and 2 1 1/2" return pipes on each side that i will probably have to figure how to put loc lines onto with a manifold of some kind???, They sound fine the way they are. Be careful with loc-line that you don't end up directing the return line too far under water so that when you have a power outage the backwash doesn't overflow your sump. The pump is really large so it blows like crazy thus the dump pipe back into the sump or the fish looked like they were being flushed LOL Did you check the GPH on that puppy yet? Even a brand/model would help.
It was set up with tons of overkill as i used to keep asian arowanas so im hopeing i wont need much more current or pumps just better direction but we will see. Are there any powerheads in the tank? In a saltwater system you only want about 6-10x turnover through the sump. The majority of the flow comes from powerheads in the tank. Look into a Tunze Wavebox, on a nice long tank like yours it would make a sweet wave!

Well the pump (rebuilt) is from a display rack filter system, Its .25HP to 1.5HP..... and from what google says up to 68GPM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/022-3.jpg
Ive got it on the lowest setting and it still dumps the 90 gallon wet dry in a few min....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustler (Post 636938)

Well the pump (rebuilt) is from a display rack filter system, Its .25HP to 1.5HP..... and from what google says up to 68GPM

Ive got it on the lowest setting and it still dumps the 90 gallon wet dry in a few min....

I don't recognize that pump. What's the label on it say? Any model names/numbers? I think the pump might be a bit too big for a reef sump...that sounds like it is over 4000 gph which would be 13x turnover or more. Too much flow through the sump washes a bunch of microbubbles from the skimmer up into your tank which makes the water look cloudy and irritates the corals. It is also a waste of electricity, and probably adds more heat to the tank than you need to. Anything more than 6x turnover through the sump is a waste as that is all the skimmer can process anyway.

Personally, I would replace it with two 1000 gph (at 5' head) pumps. this way if one ever breaks down you still have the other pumping. Redundancy is really important when you start getting into bigger and/or more expensive systems.

You didn't post how much clearance you have under there...?

the stand is 32" high but between the top of the sump and stand its 10" give or take. I can put the skimmer on the opposite end and I have a few baffles in there to eat up any champange bubbles. It also causes very little heat or noise the tank runs at 76f with the heaters unplugged.
The pump is a century lasar BN50.
I will eventually change it out for a diffrent style pump with better power ratings but Im hopeing for now it will do the trick to get everything seeded and cycled as I have a list that wont stop growing to buy for a tank that up till now has had everything its needed to be a show tank and run like a top lol
It sucks all my fish head friends are also all freshies and no one is even interested in salt so im basing everything on what i can read here or youtube... I will be making a few trips to local pet stores for more info but I always seem to get sold on something that never quite cuts it when i get home lol. I really appreciate the help you all are throwing my way.... Seems this was the place to find :)

I Googled your pump. No wonder I don't recognize it...it's a spa pump. can't find flow rating for it. Will post if i do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustler (Post 636955)

the stand is 32" high Oh there is 32" under there? Doesn't look like it! Ok, that helps. Now, measure from the bottom of the sump up to the bottom of the tank to see how tall of a skimmer can sit in the sump. Makes sure you account for glass thickness. The stand opening doesn't matter...depending how your stand is designed you will measure up to the bottom of the tank or maybe there is a layer of plywood under there.

but between the top of the sump and stand its 10" give or take. Ok, this means you have to find a skimmer that has a skimmer cup that is less than 10" tall so you can get the cup out a couple times per week to clean it.

I can put the skimmer on the opposite end and I have a few baffles in there to eat up any champange bubbles. It also causes very little heat or noise the tank runs at 76f with the heaters unplugged. The order in a basic sump is mechanical filtration, skimmer, baffles, return chamber.

Mechanical filtration; machine-washable filter sock, or go to a fabric store and buy 100% polyester quilting material that is about 1.5" thick. It is different than pillow material...pillow material is fluffy globs, quilting material is flat sheets/rolls. The quilting material is use and toss, it is not reusable nor washable. You would have to make a rack to hold the bulk material. You will change out any type of mechanical filtration at least once a week.

Baffles determine the water height for the skimmer. Buy your skimmer first, and read the manual to find out the suggested water height. Most skimmers run best around 8" (as a rough idea to give you). I find it works best if you have the first skimmer 1" off the bottom, next baffle touching the bottom, next baffle up 1". The last baffle before the return is always up 1" to get the least amount of bubbles to the return pump. The baffles are all the same height (so every second one is up an inch off the bottom so it sticks up an inch higher), don't make the mistake of running baffles up really high because then they are a pain to clean or retrieve something you drop in there. Three baffles is typical, five baffles is plenty.

The pump is a century lasar BN50. Good God that thing is a hog! :eek: It is 1.5HP and draws 16.4 amps on full. That is one expensive beast. Apparently it is generally sold for hot tub use. Usually I would be quite leery about using a pump not designed for aquarium use because many of them with leak their lubricating oils a bit. Wow, you could save a lot of money by upgrading to a new pump(s).

I will be making a few trips to local pet stores for more info but I always seem to get sold on something that never quite cuts it when i get home lol. I really appreciate the help you all are throwing my way.... Seems this was the place to find :) I would suggest you don't buy anything significant without double checking with the experienced and friendly "staff" at CanReef. Pet stores will always makes something sound SO awesome you just can't do without it. Be very choosy about your skimmer...that is the backbone of your reef.

I plan to buy new pumps in the future depending where the tank goes as far as inside needs, Ill have to buy a second if i go the sea swirl route anyways. Looks like i have about 30" from base of sump to top of wood.
My sump has a tray at the top of the first chamber i use floss in now and then 30-40 gallons of bio balls that drains into the main sump.... then i have about 3 feet of open chamber before the pumps bulkhead on the end so I will have to add a baffle there for sure Or atleast make an egg crate baffle with a foam to eat up the bubbles but there is plenty of room for a skimmer in there. I may go with a Skimz sm251 if i cant find anything better or cheaper??? I would like to try and keep critters in my sump if possible as Ive always wanted a mantis shrimp but i would rather all the other crab/shrimp type cleaners in the display tank. I will need to do a ton of research to find out who can live with who and then build thier reef to what they need i guess.
I always wanted a lionfish, and Im not terribly interested in the small school fish or anything that looks like a chiclid LOL More like angles and and your typical larger salt fish But i also really wanted stars and shrimp/crabs or even a lobster :) This is all way down the road i know but i should still prepare.
Have any of you ever dealt with eco live rock from back east? cheap and clean live rock with free delivery???

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustler (Post 637255)

I plan to buy new pumps in the future depending where the tank goes as far as inside needs, Ill have to buy a second if i go the sea swirl route anyways. I would suggest an Oceans Motions device instead. My personal preference.

Looks like i have about 30" from base of sump to top of wood. Ok, just make sure you pick a skimmer that will fit, and leave yourself at least 1" to remove the skimmer cup, but preferably 3" or more.

My sump has a tray at the top of the first chamber i use floss in now and then 30-40 gallons of bio balls that drains into the main sump.... then i have about 3 feet of open chamber before the pumps bulkhead on the end so I will have to add a baffle there for sure Or atleast make an egg crate baffle with a foam to eat up the bubbles but there is plenty of room for a skimmer in there. I would not use the foam as anti-bubble. Foams and floss can't be rinsed and reused in reef tanks...they will become nitrate factories. Throwing away a foam block once a week would become costly. Filter socks are the only easily machine-washable and reusable filter media. They attach directly to the drain pipe(s) as they enter the sump.

You have plenty of room in your sump to employ macroalgae culture for nutrient reduction. Totally optional on your part. If you decide on this, make a chamber in the sump after the skimmer and ONLY put chaeto in there (need a light too...clip on table lamps work well with small flood light). The Chaeto needs to be able to roll freely from the current going through so it can't have any rock or anything else in there to get hooked on. It will suck up a significant amount of phosphate and nitrate provided it is done well.

One of the biggest differences between saltwater and freshwater is that in freshwater you are trying to make nitrate as fast as possible, and saltwater you are trying to remove nutrients before they have a chance to become nitrate. The protein skimmer plays a big part in this.

I may go with a Skimz sm251 if i cant find anything better or cheaper??? The SWC skimmers with the Askoll pumps are a good choice too. The 230 and 250A would both be good and easily fit in your sump. The Skimz is fairly equivalent of the SWC 230, but better build quality.

I would like to try and keep critters in my sump if possible as Ive always wanted a mantis shrimp but i would rather all the other crab/shrimp type cleaners in the display tank. I will need to do a ton of research to find out who can live with who and then build thier reef to what they need i guess.
I would suggest you set up a separate system for a mantis. They eat a lot and make a big mess (pollute the water).

I always wanted a lionfish, and Im not terribly interested in the small school fish or anything that looks like a chiclid LOL More like angles and and your typical larger salt fish But i also really wanted stars and shrimp/crabs or even a lobster :) This is all way down the road i know but i should still prepare.
There are Dwarf Lionfish that can go right in the display tank provided there aren't any tiny fish, but things like clownfish are just fine in with them. Google "Fuzzy Dwarf Lionfish". Shrimp and crabs will be eaten by Lionfish.

I think you would be happiest with a FOWLR (so don't bother with that halide lighting!) considering the fish you want. There are still some corals that won't get eaten by the fish you describe. If fish are more important I say pick out a bunch of fish, and then choose some corals that will go with them, but keep in mind you will definitely be limited.

Have any of you ever dealt with eco live rock from back east? cheap and clean live rock with free delivery??? I don't know anyone who has used it. It sounds like a good product, but it is homemade rock. The quality/functionality could be questionable... or it could be great. Hard to say.

Myka
Thanks for all the super fast and well informed replies :) You are making this alot easier than it first seemed.
I dont suppose there is a walkthrough somewhere or a simple list laid out for newbies that explains type of fish with coral and crustation compatability?
I have lists from my suppliers all the time either from back east, vancouver or even staeside when flights permit..... but with zero hours in the salt realm i find myself a little blind where with fresh i understood it all at a glance