Oh yeah? Want to buy a used pair, cheap? You could have 5 over your tank... perfect for your brown corals!

Not this weekend :smile:

Wow, sorry to hear about your fish losses.
Have you considered using Stability or MB7 ? Since your rock is kinda lacking in bacteria ... are you using an Ammo Alert badge and testing ? May have no bearing but doesn't hurt to check/keep an eye on these kinds of things.
NH3, and NO2 and 3 testing is one of my chores whenever I add new fish.
Since you don't currently QT, you have more going on than me with fish additions. Possible infections and feeding are a couple that come to mind.

The Tigger pods, IME, are a one-time addition - add, eaten, gone.
I've not used the Doc's eggs yet ..

You've got a lot on your plate ..
Dead rock, new tank, zeo-vit system, new frags, new lights, new fish ....

Deep breath ... :wink:

Sucks to lose fish. I lost a new wrasse last week. It made it one day, next morning I found it half eaten. After that decided my tank has enough fish.

What happened to taking a break on new things for a while and letting your system settle a bit? Hope everything comes together for you.

Sucks to hear, man. Never nice to lose fish. I have to agree with the thoughts already expressed. When I started my first tank (the 77 gal I'm running now and upgrading) I was quick to try and fix things that I perceived were going wrong. And I'm still paying for those actions 3 years later. I'm now in the don't do or add anything into a tank other than new salt water and top up water for at least a year. If corals are not growing... At least they're not dying, lol. Regular water changes will give them all the nutrients they need to stay alive. Keep in mind this is my thinking for people new to the hobby. Until people fully understand the effects of adding agent "a" they really shouldn't be doing it. I thought I new why I added a something as innocuous as an algae turf scrubber.... Still paying for it. I thought I new why I started vodka dosing... Now I believe I'm still paying for it.
I believe the only way to get over my mistakes over the last 3 years is to start over, completely re-starting with almost nothing from my old tank going into the new. It sucks. It's humbling. But, like I've heard before, education is never free.
Resist the temptation to try and fix something unless it's imminently going to kill fish. Work on tweeking colors and corals after a couple years and you can intuitively know how they are reacting when you dose stuff.

I have a bottle of MB7 I am using for the 20 gal, but I have resisted using it in my 65 only because I'm using Zeo. I test for NH3, NO3, PO4, Ca, Alk, and Mag twice a week. Salinity once a week with a refractometer, and monitor pH, temp and salinity (apex probe) daily.

Other than adding the Flame, I am taking a break on adding things... until I find more room for frags! Lol. But yeah, that's it for fish for a while. Please, no one offer me any more free fish, lol!

I haven't really tried to change anything. I chose ZeoVit for this tank and I'm going to stick with it, hence why I'm not adding MB7. Sure I changed brands of skimmers, but that change should have no effect. My problem is, I went against the grain by using dry rock, knowing full well that it wasn't recommended by ZeoVit. I just have to live with that decision and wait it out. I thought the corals were browning because I wasn't using any specialized amino acids or that sort, but it appears to be the intensity of the Kessils were too low. Like I said, the corals are responding better now that I've increased the intensity and photo period. Ian has been very helpful in sharing his lighting schedule with me and he has no problem getting SPS growth and colours from his Kessils, so I know the lights work just fine.

In the end, this is my first salt tank. Mistakes are bound to be made, hopefully I can learn from them. When I do decide to upgrade, I should have a better understanding of just how things work. Just like you are doing with your upgrade Dom!

I hope my first post didn't come of snobbish. I have loved and hated my first tank. But I also wouldn't have chosen to do it any differently. The lessons I've learned, I probably wouldn't have learned any other way. It has brought me many hours of enjoyment and inspired me to try again :)
I believe I now know what things I've done wrong, but I bet in 5 years, I'll realize I still hadn't a clue, lol.
Good on ya for sticking with your decisions and getting help from those experienced with what you're trying to do.
I'll continue to learn vicariously from those who try things different from me :)

No no, I didn't read that as snobbish at all. I appreciate all your input Dom!

Fwiw, Tigger pods won't colonize in the tank. What is in the Doc's? I can see in the pic it mentions rotifers which won't colonize either, and copepods...what kind of copepods? For pods that will colonize the tank, you're better off using a ball of chaeto from someone else's (clean) system. Adding some clean, cured live rock to the sump might help you out too.

It was a bottle of Doc's Eco Matter. Added last night. Worth a shot. I picked up some cheato from Ian for my 20 gal, but there's aptasia in that tank now, so no way it's getting near the 65. Lol.

Man, that's a brutal few days. I know how that feels from a couple weeks ago. Hope everything will turn out positively for you soon, buddy!

Thanks Brian, I was a bit of a Debbie Downer there for a few days but I'm trying to stay positive!

Eco matter contains: “L” Shaped Rotifers, Moina Salina, Nanno Phytoplankton, Copepods: Tigriopus, Tisbe, Parvocalanus, Pseudodiaptomus, Acartia

Sounds delicious, thanks Joe!

Well, its official, the wife just called and reported the Damsel and her favorite Clown are dead. Second Clown probably isn't too far behind. Corals and inverts appear to be unaffected. Time to reevaluate and leave the tank fallow for 3 months I guess.

Seriously ****ed, because I know it could have been avoided.

damn dude i was following this thread too! that sucks. i got wrecked by velvet/ich too! lost 9 fish

Damn man that really sucks? Do you know exactly what it is? Seems to be pretty harsh just to be ick. I know it sucks not having any fish in the tank for a while but it lets you work on other things.

Aquascape and frag placement. Lets you acquire more frags. Lets your pod population increase. Allows you to plan for the fish you want and the order you want to get them(or all at once). Gotta keep it positive. Really 3 months in the life of a tank isn't all that long.

I've lost countless numbers of fish during my freshwater days, but as this is my first salt tank, it really stings. Probably the worst part is that the clowns were my wifes favourite part of the tank. She really started to come around once they went in. The poor girl had to flush her favourite fish today. I'll need to buy her something shiny.

Unfortunately I wont know what it is unless I can do a biopsy under a microscope, which I don't have. Lots of telltale white spots, but also a white sheen that appears under blues.

If and when the last fish dies, I'll be putting him on ice until I can get my hands on a microscope.

Completely ruled out Velvet based on the fact that the tank from which the Flame came, has mild Ich, but all fish are fine.

Can Ich wipe out an entire tank once introduced in 7 days? Symptoms began after the Flame was introduced, so I assume he was patient zero.

Also considering poisoning, and use of tap water for rinsing certain tools etc. Pretty hard to believe any poisoning would show the same symptoms as Ich. Confirmed with the wife and mother in law that no cleaning/spraying was done near the tank.

Still haven't mounted any frags, and I wanted to thin out the sandbed. So yeah, lots of stuff to do in the meantime. Maybe even set up a QT because, you know, I'm an idiot. :doh:

Well fish die in quarantine as much as in a display tank but everyone has there opinion on that. Maybe yours has changed now after this icky episode.

Make your tank nice and pretty in the next 3 months. Get good growth on your sps then when you add fish they will make the tank even better looking.

Sorry to hear about your losses Warren
It definitely hurts losing fish

FWIW, I set up a QT after losing a bunch of fish. I lost more fish in QT than not, so now my tank is full of non quarantined fish, all happy and healthy.
I don't even have an opinion on it anymore, I think it's a good idea, but not for me.

Oh yeah... that's why I didn't bother with a QT.

I got lucky so far, and not pushing it. Fish list is complete, so fingers crossed nothing happens. If I lose another tank full, I'm probably done!!

FWIW, I lost all my fish, about 4 of them when I was new to saltwater about 3 years ago to ich, or a similar "white spot" disease, although I'm pretty sure it wasn't velvet.

Left my tank fallow for 3 months, vowed to QT everything wet that goes into my tank from then on.

I haven't lost a single fish since, and currently have 7 in my tank.

As with every other aspect of this hobby, you'll have stories on one end of the spectrum such as Aquattro's and then stories on the other end such as mine.

My experiences have convinced me that QT is the way to go, his have convinced him otherwise.

Good luck with moving forward, I know probably every single reefer on Canreef has lost some livestock one way or another. Right now is the perfect time to ask around, maybe do some research and figure out exactly which direction you would like to take.

Absolutely 2 views on QT. If anyone asks me, I recommend it, I just don't practice it myself anymore. Mostly out of frustration.

That totally sucks. Sorry to hear. I agree about all the views expressed with QT. I think it's a good idea in practice. I do a modified QT :)
Here's my rationalization, wrong or right or somewhere in between. My QT consists of a full tank change every 72 hours for two weeks. So a full cycle of the TTM. That, in theory should get rid of ich.
If anything else should show, I figure the stress of that should make it apparent and I can deal with it. If nothing shows in that two weeks, into the display it goes.
I've tried a full 6-8 weeks QT and I've not been able to do it. That's when I've killed fish. So far since I've done the TTM, I haven't lost a fish due to my negligence, and I actually have seen few sick fish. Prazipro has been able to take care of anything else so far.

But I know the TTM isn't easy if you don't have a fish room or somewhere you can set up an entire system...

Quarantine is all about risk factor. If you have several thousand dollars worth of fish in a large tank then it doesn't make sense to NOT quarantine. One little fish can wipe out all of them. If you have a small tank, and few fish, then maybe quarantine isn't as dire.

Agreed. If I decided to add another fish now, I would risk losing that single fish in QT vs risking the tank populous overall.

This sounds like a pretty good idea and is something I will seriously consider. The wife and I are starting to think about a new stocking list (no more tangs or rescue fish). The one remaining fish, male clown, appears not too bad and I'm starting to think he might have a chance. Guess I will try to catch him in the future and treat, if he survives. I'd really like to start the fallow period.

I think Myka nailed it on the head. Quarantine is important if you have an established tank with a lot to lose, not saying if you have only a few fishes that you don't have to worry. It all cost money. I think you can quarantine but just need to quarantine in the right tank, putting a larger fish in a 20 gallon quarantine is just not the best practice. Corals on the other hand can be quarantined in a 20 gallon tank with proper flow and lighting of course.

I do feel responsible for your loses and I think the only way to make it up to you is to set up that 120 for you. just tell me when and i'll be over...

Lol, don't sweat it. We're still friends!

So this weekend.....:fadein:

Hell ya... you had me at 'so'. Lol.

Wait... did you mean the 120? Ummmm, no.

Maybe you can just setup another 65 right next to the current one? run to the same sump and have a sorta 130? or is the 120 a better idea?

I kinda like the idea of dual 65's.:lol:

Dual 120 or just a 210....ready to go! :mrgreen:

Gotta think custom Warren. Everyones stuff now is custom. Even I asked for a custom tank quote from concepts. :twised:

The last Clown seems to be weathering the storm. He ate no problem, but still acts a bit off. I'll let you kids have a look and tell me what you think.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/541/17...e25fd3fd_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/389/18...6779ec77_o.jpg

Tested today just to be sure I didn't overlook something. All seems ok.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8884/1...98f0ab79_o.jpg

Hey, cool paper spreadsheet. Did you steal that idea from someone too ? :smile:

I don't think I've ever seen velvet on marine fish, but that looks like waaay tooo much powder to be MI.
But if it is velvet you'd expect it to be dead by now.
If it is MI, it looks to me like it's cycled more than once or twice.

Hopefully others with more long-term experience will chime in.

In the meantime, good luck W

oh man do i ever feel for you, I feel like we have had very similar tank issues... Dry rock, zeovit and my acros started stning, then i also had an ick outbreak from an emporer angel i added (dumb fish to add to a reef tank btw) that killed over 13 fish and quick 1000 bucks. Several tangs, clownfish, mandarins(prob not ich but weird timing), 10 chromis 1 by 1, it was awful. After about 12 days there was my coris wrasse and 3 chromis that seems to be doing just fine.

I had planned on going fallow but couldnt catch the coris...so i just left it alone for a good month. I recently started to add fish again...

Ich is still present in my tank, for sure, but none of my fish I have added have died. I beleive that feeding well and have a very good source of oxygen for the water ( i added another exteral skimmer) keeps fish healthy and heavy oxygen is hard for ich parasites to thrive. My fish show some spots here and there in the evening, but by mid day they are all ich free it seems. so far i have added 15 chromis, a yellow eye tang, mellanarus wrasse, male and female bird wrasse and several anthias..All relatively hardy except for the tang..

Im still not going to QT anymore but i now realise that great husbandy and hardy fish with well oxygenated water is the way i am going to deal with ich.

I use a QT. I'm not against the TT method, nor am I against adding fish directly to a DT. I just don't do it 'cause for me it's too risky. And because I QT everything I lose about 20% of my fish, but I've never lost one that was added to my DT due to being new to the tank.
I'm sure people who add fish directly to their DTs lose at least 20% of their new fish, so isn't it relative ?
QT does not kill fish, reefers kill fish ... :smile:
A proper QT setup can support almost any new fish, IMHO.
Now we'll hear the arguments about it after this post ...

On the other side of the fence with Rosco's comments in mind ...
MI apparently cycles itself out after approx 11 months.
So in Rosco's situation, if he added no new critters of any kind for 1 year he could potentially be MI free.
Then he could use a TTMethod or QT to keep his DT MI free.

Then there's the concern about Tomonts coming into the tank with 'stuff'.
They can be on anything wet. So what do you do ?
Even though I QT everything, I've given up worrying about the small things (thanks Brad).
I dip new corals, don't do anything beyond acclimation with shrimps and crabs, and for 3 years my tank appears to be MI free. Knock on wood.

So many choices ...

Then, if you do QT, what protocol do you employ ?
Aargh, this hobby is so much fun.
Aren't you glad you took it up, instead of basket weaving ?
I'll bet you could have had some awesome embroideries for sale by now at the local market :mrgreen:

Then, what if it truly is Velvet ? As I said earlier, it's beyond my experience so I can't diagnose/recognize it. But if it is ....
Well, then you need to keep some chloroquine phosphate on hand, and I happen to have some if you need it ...